Inventions: the best change since 1.2, but...

[Vohen]

I imagined the second suggestion could be quite controversial, but is anyone specifically against the first one?
I think it'd be quite helpful and change nothing in practice, just adding a tooltip to better display the current options to the player.

I think something like the filter from Realpolitiks' technology trees could be very useful. Basically you have a filter where you select the area/s you are interested in and it tells you about all technologies related to what you selected.

I'm not familiar with it, seems very, very interesting.

The search in the current form is in some way worse than no search, because it doesn't show everything relevant, but gives impression that it's all that is. For example, if one was to search for 'conversion' one wouldn't find probably the most important tech for that (the one that unlocks grand temple). Or it shows something unrelated (for example, search for 'AE'). Search also doesn't work across different types of advances. The idea in the first picture may help in some situations, but in general, one isn't going to take everything in the tree and it doesn't give a good idea how many inventions one would need to unlock inventions one really wants to take. However, this is not an issue that is unique to Imperator - what strategy games have (much) better tech tree UI?

The thing is, a player might not know at the start what modifiers even are unlocked by inventions, or exactly which ones he'll need in the long term until he sees that modifier somewhere.
Say you're playing in a tribal area, you may not realize there are significant boosts to city founding costs until you see an invention with it.
Then it becomes a trivial matter to use the search bar to look for it and prioritize those inventions.
But until then you're completely in the dark, you'll either have to hover through every invention in the game to decide which modifiers seem most important to you, or just wing it and likely miss these important inventions until much later.
The idea of the first pic is to just display that info in one tooltip, so you can go through everything in one place, and then use the search bar to find specifically where the invention you're looking for is, and how deep it is in the tree.
It's meant to be used in combination with the search function really.

Being not sure what to pursue is a different issue - it seems more of a player not being able to choose the strategy.

I don't see it that way.
As I said above, someone may not even know what modifiers will be the most useful to him until he finds them somewhere.
So, as per the example, he knows that his strategy is going to involve founding a lot of cities, but he may not know that there even are inventions reducing the cost, which is absolutely crucial in this situation.
He can always search on the wiki or something, but it seems imperative to me that better UI is never a bad thing, especially when trying to get new players into the game.

 

[Vohen]

also please dont replace inventions with mana garbage like in

Man, I don't get where people are taking this idea to be comparable to mana at all, maybe I am being misinterpreted somewhere.
Just to make it clear, I am extremely against mana as well, and would never advocate for anything like it.

 

[MishaTX]

I imagined the second suggestion could be quite controversial, but is anyone specifically against the first one?

Certainly not I. As a matter of fact I like it very much. The UI should provide as much information as practical and yes, while "coming to grips" with the invention tree something like what you suggested could help by saying "hey, look what's hiding in here!"

Edit: Something I've not seen mentioned that works really well with the current invention tree would be the small symbols on each invention summarizing quite nicely what an invention is all (or mostly) about. Only "problem" is that once you're familiar with the symbols and their meaning, you've probably already sussed the whole tree out

 

[Vohen]

Edit: Something I've not seen mentioned that works really well with the current invention tree would be the small symbols on each invention summarizing quite nicely what an invention is all (or mostly) about. Only "problem" is that once you're familiar with the symbols and their meaning, you've probably already sussed the whole tree out

It also doesn't work very well for inventions with more than one modifier, as it can only show one icon.

 

[MishaTX]

It also doesn't work very well for inventions with more than one modifier, as it can only show one icon.

Correct, but it mostly catches the most important one, or at least that's been the case as far as I'm concerned until now.

Doesn't mean it can't be made better, of course, but it's a good example of what we, IMHO, need more of because it "just works"

 

[Akbar The Great]

I like it as it is, the last thing it needs is streamlining, if anything it ought to be expanded upon, giving greater choice, so you sit there agonizing over which routes to take, desperate to increase your research speed etc so you can also pursue another path.

There's a few no-brainers in certain scenarios, like getting Legions, or getting the conversion/assimilation buildings, but there's still plenty of other choices to make. It's a shame the naval game is so DOA, because that's a whole lot of options and gameplay wasted. If diplo and trade are improved then that also offers up more options and more ways to shape your civilization.

It is so clear that trade needs an overhaul next.

 

[Nominus]

I personally like the huge tech trees and agree with @IsaaCat that there could be a political tree added. Also the religious tree could be renamed"philosophical advances", because it's exactly that, but that's besides the point.
Imho inventions should be made even more impactful and remain as numerous as they are, because it increases replayability and offers different playstyles to feel unique.
There need to be (very high) caps though, like max out at -90% AE reduction, to prevent exploits.

 

[Nostalgium]

Pretty much the only major change I'd like to make to the tech tree is a filter - you already have that in the Wonder Designer where you can toggle for effects and type. I'd very much like to see that added to the tech tree as well - something that marks unfiltered techs in grey (and I mean stone grey, not just the washed-out grey we currently have) so that it's abundantly clear that this has nothing to do with the effects you filter for while still letting you see what goes where in progression.

 

[alexti]

The thing is, a player might not know at the start what modifiers even are unlocked by inventions, or exactly which ones he'll need in the long term until he sees that modifier somewhere.

This isn't something specific to the tech tree. For example, you can't tell what abilities you'll gain by switching the government at all. Many modifiers can also be acquired by other (rarely obvious means - like getting a suitable relic into a shrine, for example). So this argument is more for a having UI that could show all possible sources of a specified modifier (like what wiki does).

Say you're playing in a tribal area, you may not realize there are significant boosts to city founding costs until you see an invention with it.
Then it becomes a trivial matter to use the search bar to look for it and prioritize those inventions.
But until then you're completely in the dark, you'll either have to hover through every invention in the game to decide which modifiers seem most important to you, or just wing it and likely miss these important inventions until much later.
The idea of the first pic is to just display that info in one tooltip, so you can go through everything in one place, and then use the search bar to find specifically where the invention you're looking for is, and how deep it is in the tree.
It's meant to be used in combination with the search function really.

Such tooltip would give some information, but it's fairly limited in its usefulness, particularly without a good search function. I am just saying that there is a need for more significant UI improvements and I can't think of any obvious and/or easy solution.

I don't see it that way.
As I said above, someone may not even know what modifiers will be the most useful to him until he finds them somewhere.
So, as per the example, he knows that his strategy is going to involve founding a lot of cities, but he may not know that there even are inventions reducing the cost, which is absolutely crucial in this situation.
He can always search on the wiki or something, but it seems imperative to me that better UI is never a bad thing, especially when trying to get new players into the game.

I would say that forming a strategy of founding a lot of cities without knowing how much it's going to cost is a rather dubious idea But there is nothing that makes inventions unique here - for example, getting cost reduction from traditions is just as important. It's more of an argument for having a wiki as part of game UI. I am not really sure how many new players would wade through all that information before playing. I think most would just play the game without worrying about playing optimally and only start to learn all that information if they liked the game enough to play more.

 

[Oshidashi]

I'd like more inventions with smaller bonusses to enhance tribal gameplay. Tribes have to wait what feels like an eternity before getting enough research to earn inventions. Or instead of more inventions for smaller bonusses, tribes could have a tech tree just for them. There are currently one or two culture specific inventions accessible for tribes. but they are locked further up the tree. Add some for tribes earlier on to make things interesting.

 

[Vohen]

This isn't something specific to the tech tree. For example, you can't tell what abilities you'll gain by switching the government at all. Many modifiers can also be acquired by other (rarely obvious means - like getting a suitable relic into a shrine, for example).

Yes, but it's particularly relevant for inventions since the trees are quite huge, so there's a lot of information to process to spend a single resource.
Compared to traditions, where at first you'll only have to look into one or two (comparatively) very tiny trees, it is a much larger endeavor do process.
Or relics and wonders, which are resources you have to actively seek out, instead of naturally gaining like inventions and traditions.

So this argument is more for a having UI that could show all possible sources of a specified modifier (like what wiki does).

Indeed, that would be great.
But the fact of the matter is that, at the very game start, the player will have to commit to a set of inventions, so if he can see what lays further down the line all right there in the invention interface, the choice will be much easier to make.
I have said it, and it may only be my experience, but the true game changer for me there was when I listed the total modifiers of each tree myself, so I think that could help a lot of people as well if such info was presented in game.

Such tooltip would give some information, but it's fairly limited in its usefulness, particularly without a good search function.

Well, as I said previously, this is supposed to work together with the search bar.
Or even better, using nested tooltips, when you hover over a modifier in the info tooltip, it could automatically search for that modifier, highlighting the exact inventions which gives them.

I am just saying that there is a need for more significant UI improvements and I can't think of any obvious and/or easy solution.

Well, at least I'm trying I guess

I would say that forming a strategy of founding a lot of cities without knowing how much it's going to cost is a rather dubious idea

Knowing how much it's going to cost and knowing that there are modifiers reducing that cost are quite different matters.
A new player might not even follow this train of thought until he comes cross that modifier and it "clicks" for him.
So the game would do much better to display that info upfront.

It's like a player going into EU4 and simply thinking "I'm going to conquer EVERYTHING", without knowing about AE reduction, CCR or admin efficiency.
It's not a given at first.

But there is nothing that makes inventions unique here - for example, getting cost reduction from traditions is just as important.

Yeah, but the inventions trees are uniquely huge, as I said before.

 

[alexti]

Yes, but it's particularly relevant for inventions since the trees are quite huge, so there's a lot of information to process to spend a single resource.
Compared to traditions, where at first you'll only have to look into one or two (comparatively) very tiny trees, it is a much larger endeavor do process.
Or relics and wonders, which are resources you have to actively seek out, instead of naturally gaining like inventions and traditions.

It can be argued that you need to actively seek out traditions in this game I find that in practice you have to look through the whole set of available traditions because you need to plan which ones you want to get and that would often determine your first wars. Relics and wonder present slightly different problem - the information is hard to find rather than needing to go through a lot of information.

But the fact of the matter is that, at the very game start, the player will have to commit to a set of inventions, so if he can see what lays further down the line all right there in the invention interface, the choice will be much easier to make.
I have said it, and it may only be my experience, but the true game changer for me there was when I listed the total modifiers of each tree myself, so I think that could help a lot of people as well if such info was presented in game.

It might depend on how you are playing. I need to look through all available sources of modifiers first just to determine if my strategy is going to be feasible. I have never taken complete invention tree (yet). But a different way to play would be to pick whatever modifiers are useful right now. I don't know how many players worry about making absolutely optimal choice of inventions.

Well, as I said previously, this is supposed to work together with the search bar.
Or even better, using nested tooltips, when you hover over a modifier in the info tooltip, it could automatically search for that modifier, highlighting the exact inventions which gives them.

I like this idea of nested tooltips (or hyperlinked encyclopedia). It would also work across different sources of modifiers.

Knowing how much it's going to cost and knowing that there are modifiers reducing that cost are quite different matters.
A new player might not even follow this train of thought until he comes cross that modifier and it "clicks" for him.
So the game would do much better to display that info upfront.

Availability of those modifiers sometimes determines if the strategy makes sense at all. The argument for displaying this info upfront would apply across the board. In practice, better UI would be to display the list from UI where it would apply. So for cities, when hovering over the "found the city" button one would get a tooltip listing various sources of cost reduction.

It's like a player going into EU4 and simply thinking "I'm going to conquer EVERYTHING", without knowing about AE reduction, CCR or admin efficiency.
It's not a given at first.

Isn't it how everyone starts EU4? And only after conquering half of the world realizes "oh, I could've done it much more efficiently"

 

[Vohen]

I like this idea of nested tooltips (or hyperlinked encyclopedia). It would also work across different sources of modifiers.

I'm glad we agree on that front at least.
But really, I found listing modifiers to be quite helpful to me at least, so if there's even a fraction of players who would benefit from that, I'd say it's worth it.
For anyone else, it changes nothing, so I honestly see no reason to be against it.

Isn't it how everyone starts EU4? And only after conquering half of the world realizes "oh, I could've done it much more efficiently"

That's the point, if the information was more readily available, players would have a much easier time interacting with the mechanic from the get go, this moment of realization would come much sooner, and perhaps even the so often mentioned steep learning curve these games tend to have could become much smoother.

 

[Vohen]

Availability of those modifiers sometimes determines if the strategy makes sense at all. The argument for displaying this info upfront would apply across the board. In practice, better UI would be to display the list from UI where it would apply. So for cities, when hovering over the "found the city" button one would get a tooltip listing various sources of cost reduction.

Oh, and I'd be all for this as well, seems very useful.
Not at all mutually exclusive with my suggestion though, in fact I'd say they complement each other quite well, for a better UX overall.

 

[Dekent]

I'd really like a queue system for inventions. Click what you want and it sets the quickest path to it and auto assigns invention points as they come in.

 

[IsaacCAT]

I'd really like a queue system for inventions. Click what you want and it sets the quickest path to it and auto assigns invention points as they come in.

Lovely! I thought no one entretained this idea. Thank you.

Long time ago I suggested this for traditions, that could be implemented to inventions:

Planning for Traditions

Preface: In my pursuit of improvement using radical thinking I want you to consider this suggestion of planning for military traditions. Objective: freedom of choice for the player with immersive storytelling and game-play integration...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[alexti]

That's the point, if the information was more readily available, players would have a much easier time interacting with the mechanic from the get go, this moment of realization would come much sooner, and perhaps even the so often mentioned steep learning curve these games tend to have could become much smoother.

I think one of the main attractions of many PDS games is in discovering various mechanics. EU4 isn't really that deep, after you've learned all its mechanics it tends to become rather boring after the first few decades. So revealing all mechanics upfront might be a negative overall

 

[Vohen]

I think one of the main attractions of many PDS games is in discovering various mechanics. EU4 isn't really that deep, after you've learned all its mechanics it tends to become rather boring after the first few decades. So revealing all mechanics upfront might be a negative overall

I would never argue for purposefully making these games harder to learn, but to each their own I guess.

 

[alexti]

I would never argue for purposefully making these games harder to learn, but to each their own I guess.

It seems strange on the surface, but if the game focus is on learning game rules it makes some sense. It also allows to extend game's life by providing regular patches that change game rules. EU4 followed that model and was quite successful at that. It doesn't mean that every game should be like that, but there is a place for such design.

 

[Vohen]

It seems strange on the surface, but if the game focus is on learning game rules it makes some sense. It also allows to extend game's life by providing regular patches that change game rules. EU4 followed that model and was quite successful at that. It doesn't mean that every game should be like that, but there is a place for such design.

Sorry mate, I cannot agree with you at all.
Improving UX and accessibility is never a bad thing as long as it manages to keep at least the same depth.

Long gone are the days of HoI3 and Vic2 for PDX UX design (or lack thereof).
Even if Vic2 is still my favorite PDX game, it is in spite of its UX, just showing how great that game truly is, and HoI3 was just a nightmare.