Not the RN. The RN had a much safer route around and as such didn't have to risk it.Yes, something like that is really impossible and noone could do it. Ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash
Invasions inside strait enclosures in latest WW2 wednesday
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Besides, this is something you could try to do in HOI, too. The channel is not a locked straight.
Do we know that Spain wont be able to block the strait without controlling Gibraltar in HOI4?
I'm no expert on Spanish-British diplomacy during this time period, but I imagine the Admiralty would be quite upset if Spain made any attempt at controlling the strait. I also imagine that Franco was keenly aware of this and did not want to side openly with the Axis. If Spain is going to block the channel they might just as well take Gibraltar. No reason to do it from the other side.
I'm no expert on Spanish-British diplomacy during this time period, but I imagine the Admiralty would be quite upset if Spain made any attempt at controlling the strait. I also imagine that Franco was keenly aware of this and did not want to side openly with the Axis. If Spain is going to block the channel they might just as well take Gibraltar. No reason to do it from the other side.
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And why is that? Spain could be able to block the Gibraltar from Tangier. Let's say Spain is at war with Italy, UK controls Gibraltar, Spain controls Tangier. In current game, Italy would move through just fine.
Yet Spain could block the straits and let UK ships pass near the coast line where there are no mines (during the UK blockade it was the same, there was a safe corridor), and they would not fire at UK ships from the shore.
But currently, you can only block the straits with one province and not the other one. Even if we go with all that magic wall crap, it should be like this:
Both sides allied: enemy cannot pass
One side allied, one side neutral: enemy cannot pass
But make it so that BOTH sides matter, not only one.
A simple OR command here does the trick. That is one line of code and it makes it way better.
I don't think UK would let Spain build up to block the strait. It would mean war and if there is war between UK and Spain then Spain might as well just get Gibraltar. There is only one reason for Spain to build up the capability to block the strait and it is not in the Allies best interest.
Yes, something like that is really impossible and noone could do it. Ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash
I didn't advocate locking the Dover strait - just mentioned a historical fact that I thought people may be interested in. I'm well aware of the Channel Dash, and the fact that the RN was deeply embarrassed that they weren't able to sink the German ships.
Again we are mixing game mechanics and actual history.
In game terms, there is no reason for UK to go to war with Spain (let's say Republican Spain that is more likely to go to war with Italy) if the strait is not blocked for their ships.
Or in the Baltic, we have even better situation. Denmark and Sweden. Unlike UK-Spain, here is a much better power ratio. Yet one can block the straits, the other cannot.
Or Gulf of Finland. For the long part of the war Soviets could not deploy any vessels due to the blockade. And blocking the biggest Soviet fleet is not some minor thing that has no use in the game.
As I said, it was impossible for Germany to stage invasion of UK with its preparation state - yet we don't see an invisible wall preventing us to try. Same here, just because UK might in real life declare war on Spain (I highly doubt it, as their ships would not be blocked, only the enemy ones, and UK had its hand full at the time. Another enemy is not something they would want... especially in 1939-1940 and the possibility of losing the straits all together), does not mean Spain should not be able to block from its territory. After all, that would a great war declaration opportunity.
There are some obvious game play reasons that fleets should be able to run straits and scenarios in which I would even want the AI to take the risk. When there is no choice and the fleet can no longer operate in that body of water. Most straits are were ocean become seas. Just because in our WW2 the UK didn’t lose the Medi doesn’t mean it can’t happen in game. If Italy succeeds in taking egypt and the Suez. The Uk has one way into the Medi. This could easily give spain a strong position if the see Italy is doing well and decide to join the Axis. This could completely trap any of the royal navy in the Medi and cut of Malta. In this case Malta might be the only port left. There is no or little ways to get supplies to it and it can be easily bombed. In this case I think Uk would ofcourse run the fleet through gibralter even at the risk of losing ships it is better then having them stuck in malta.
In Russia the baltic fleet was stuck in Leningrad for a long time. If Leningrad fell they could have transported the submarines and smallest ships up river, but the larger ships. They would be left without any option but to try to break to British waters.
These types of desperate operations can be fun though! Having only one cruiser make is through while the rest of the fleet is sunk. Having that cruiser hunted down but British support arrives in time. I can’t speak for others but the thing I enjoy about HOI is the operations I put my troops through. From Torch to Market Garden. To even and invasion of Iceland or a daring bombing raid. These operations or missions are what I remember from my campaigns the most, not the fact that I ‘won’ the war. They are just fun, and when Leningrad falls I want it to be a fun daring operation not me just deleting the ships because they can’t go anywhere.
In Russia the baltic fleet was stuck in Leningrad for a long time. If Leningrad fell they could have transported the submarines and smallest ships up river, but the larger ships. They would be left without any option but to try to break to British waters.
These types of desperate operations can be fun though! Having only one cruiser make is through while the rest of the fleet is sunk. Having that cruiser hunted down but British support arrives in time. I can’t speak for others but the thing I enjoy about HOI is the operations I put my troops through. From Torch to Market Garden. To even and invasion of Iceland or a daring bombing raid. These operations or missions are what I remember from my campaigns the most, not the fact that I ‘won’ the war. They are just fun, and when Leningrad falls I want it to be a fun daring operation not me just deleting the ships because they can’t go anywhere.
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Another reason that coastal forts should be given an engagement chance is for counter attack reasons.
Say for example Spain joins Axis and takes Gibraltar.
The Suez Canal has fallen to an Axis Italy.
Even if the fortifications and guns on Gibraltar were not damaged during the fighting, the British would have destroyed them rather than let them fall into enemy hands.
So the level 10/10 Gibraltar now becomes a level 1/10 coastal fort until it can be repaired and new guns fitted.
Assuming the UK still has naval superiority, they could continue to resupply their troops in Africa by forcing the Gibraltar strait and continue to keep Gibraltar in a state of disrepair with superior firepower from British warships until they were in a position to counter attack and re-capture Gibraltar or withdraw their troops and fleets from the Med and Africa.
That in my opinion would be one hell of a good reason to attempt to force entry, or more likely exit, through the strait.
Say for example Spain joins Axis and takes Gibraltar.
The Suez Canal has fallen to an Axis Italy.
Even if the fortifications and guns on Gibraltar were not damaged during the fighting, the British would have destroyed them rather than let them fall into enemy hands.
So the level 10/10 Gibraltar now becomes a level 1/10 coastal fort until it can be repaired and new guns fitted.
Assuming the UK still has naval superiority, they could continue to resupply their troops in Africa by forcing the Gibraltar strait and continue to keep Gibraltar in a state of disrepair with superior firepower from British warships until they were in a position to counter attack and re-capture Gibraltar or withdraw their troops and fleets from the Med and Africa.
That in my opinion would be one hell of a good reason to attempt to force entry, or more likely exit, through the strait.
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Hmm, if they wanted Gibraltar back, I would think it would be invaded via a the most easiest land route near it. Which the game allows. Which would not be forcing the straight under Gibraltar's guns. My understanding is that Gibraltar "Rock" is not directly assault-able by sea, the only practical route is the landward side?
Example: Spain enters the war, One assumes the Southern coast of the straight, will be made "hot" by Spain so the UK can't safely transit it. I would suggest the Hoi Iv game then makes this straight impassable.
The UK would likely then use its sea power to capture the area by invading in the safest spot (Atlantic to African coast with easiest harbour) and transit over land, no need to contest dangerous straights without manoeuvre room. All this can be done with the current games simplified, impassable straights mechanic.
Example: Spain enters the war, One assumes the Southern coast of the straight, will be made "hot" by Spain so the UK can't safely transit it. I would suggest the Hoi Iv game then makes this straight impassable.
The UK would likely then use its sea power to capture the area by invading in the safest spot (Atlantic to African coast with easiest harbour) and transit over land, no need to contest dangerous straights without manoeuvre room. All this can be done with the current games simplified, impassable straights mechanic.
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Well in my example above, it would be assumed that the Spanish will know that the UK will want to get their men and ships out of the now sealed of Med, so will garrison and reinforce the area.
The UK with a weak land army has troops fighting in Africa, India and needing to maintain a strong homeland garrison, as they are under threat from a German Operation Sea lion, can not muster enough troops for a mainland invasion of Spain.
Especially as they will need to pull most of the homeland fleet out of Scarpa flow, in order to help with air supremacy and naval gunfire bombardments on the damaged Gibraltar and the other coastal forts along the edge of the Gibraltar Strait in southern Spain, in order to assist the trapped Mediterranean fleet to force passage through the strait.
Unless the Spanish player has spent resources on coastal forts in the south of Spain, I don't see that they would be in a position to block the strait completely with only a damaged Gibraltar.
This would allow the UK player to attempt to break out under the protection of local air superiority from the fleet carriers and overwhelming firepower from the numerous British warships.
The Spanish player however should still get the opportunity to damage this fleet if they have spent resources constructing coastal forts along the strait, modified by counter battery fire from the British warships.
I understand this is not going to happen for the initial release of HOI4, but it is food for thought for future releases, if the game is going to continue to advance in tactical options and alternate possibilities.
Or maybe it will just go down the more abstracted/arcade route? I guess we will have to wait and see.
The UK with a weak land army has troops fighting in Africa, India and needing to maintain a strong homeland garrison, as they are under threat from a German Operation Sea lion, can not muster enough troops for a mainland invasion of Spain.
Especially as they will need to pull most of the homeland fleet out of Scarpa flow, in order to help with air supremacy and naval gunfire bombardments on the damaged Gibraltar and the other coastal forts along the edge of the Gibraltar Strait in southern Spain, in order to assist the trapped Mediterranean fleet to force passage through the strait.
Unless the Spanish player has spent resources on coastal forts in the south of Spain, I don't see that they would be in a position to block the strait completely with only a damaged Gibraltar.
This would allow the UK player to attempt to break out under the protection of local air superiority from the fleet carriers and overwhelming firepower from the numerous British warships.
The Spanish player however should still get the opportunity to damage this fleet if they have spent resources constructing coastal forts along the strait, modified by counter battery fire from the British warships.
I understand this is not going to happen for the initial release of HOI4, but it is food for thought for future releases, if the game is going to continue to advance in tactical options and alternate possibilities.
Or maybe it will just go down the more abstracted/arcade route? I guess we will have to wait and see.
The coastal forts and guns were most effective at resisting an invation. To stop surface combat ships from getting through a straight, mines and torpedoes hidden at the shore were more effective than guns. A single old torpedo tube manned by 5 people could sink almost any ship as they can remain hidden and the ships cannot manouver in the straight, so even the most crude torpedoes can easily hit the sides of the ships as they try to pass. Just look up what happened to Blucher when it tried to force its way through the Drøbak straight to invade Oslo. It made it past the coastal guns even through it took several direct hits. But was sunk by a old ww1 torpedo fired from the shore.
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Well, actually the torpedo had it easier hitting Blücher because the coastal batteries already hit Blücher, damaging the rudder and Blücher had to reduce it´s speed. I mention that because from you it sounded as if the coastal batteries were useless in stopping ships and the torpedo did the job alone. The double irony is that "Moses" and "Aron" (made by Krupp) did that to the german navy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Drøbak_Sound#Main_Battery_rounds
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Sure, the guns have the potential to stop ships. But they lack the knockout power og torpedoes and mines, especially against armored ships. The point is. Even an undermanned completely inexperienced defense taken by surprise by the fleet can still take out a strong task force as it goes through a straight. It is suicide trying to send ships through a defended straight.
That engagement took place at a range of 500m the strait of Gibraltar is about 14km across.
There is no real comparison between the two scenarios.
Especially considering the Battle at Drøbak was an attempt at a stealthy infiltration, where we are comparing it to an attempt at forcing a passage with overwhelming firepower from numerous battleships, aircraft carriers and smaller warships.