Invasions inside strait enclosures in latest WW2 wednesday

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wolf1455

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By passing straits like the Danish and the bosporus to invade in tha balticum and on krim peninsula looked like a peace of cake. Shouldent it be some hinderens to own the straits as a defender. Coastal guns, mines etc should do some dammage both on the invasion fleet and for the supply traced I think. Whats the game rules on that subject?
 
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Zaku

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By passing straits like the Danish and the bosporus to invade in tha balticum and on krim peninsula looked like a peace of cake. Shouldent it be some hinderens to own the straits as a defender. Coastal guns, mines etc should do some dammage both on the invasion fleet and for the supply traced I think. Whats the game rules on that subject?

It has been said that the straits are bugged atm. They won't be passable by hostile fleets in the final build.
 
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bkuepers

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Good to know, still avery entertaining twitch stream. They forgot thou to answer the capture ship question. Anyone know the answer?

Via event yes, but not likely the base game. I saw French ships in the British navy after the Franco union happened early in the WWW videos.
 
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GsusNSV

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[...]They forgot thou to answer the capture ship question. Anyone know the answer?
In addition to @bkuepers :

Here is answers to a pile of questions in the stream:[...]
Q: Can we seize an enemy's fleet? For example, could Germany seize France's fleet (and the UK sink it to deny them, which happened historically)?
A: no, fleets escape or are lost except for civil wars
 
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Vukodav

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I actually thing that straits should not be blocked. Things like Suez and Panama yes, straits like Gibraltar nope. In games so far you can own for instance Gibraltar, not have a single unit, airplane or ship and the straits are blocked... how?! I hated that in previous games.

I reality straits were blocked by mines, air and sea patrols as well as coastal forts. But even then it was not impossible to go though - it was just a question how much damage would you suffer.

Artificial waterways like Kiel, Suez, Panama sure, there should be a blocker province. But with natural straits no. They should be bottlenecks to catch your enemy and that is it. No magic walls please.
 
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HeilLoki

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I actually thing that straits should not be blocked. Things like Suez and Panama yes, straits like Gibraltar nope. In games so far you can own for instance Gibraltar, not have a single unit, airplane or ship and the straits are blocked... how?! I hated that in previous games.

I reality straits were blocked by mines, air and sea patrols as well as coastal forts. But even then it was not impossible to go though - it was just a question how much damage would you suffer.

Artificial waterways like Kiel, Suez, Panama sure, there should be a blocker province. But with natural straits no. They should be bottlenecks to catch your enemy and that is it. No magic walls please.


Yeah, but an invasion of Crimea going trough a german Bosporus with 20+ division is impossible and it should be in the game too.
 
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Midden

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I actually thing that straits should not be blocked. Things like Suez and Panama yes, straits like Gibraltar nope. In games so far you can own for instance Gibraltar, not have a single unit, airplane or ship and the straits are blocked... how?! I hated that in previous games.

I reality straits were blocked by mines, air and sea patrols as well as coastal forts. But even then it was not impossible to go though - it was just a question how much damage would you suffer.

Artificial waterways like Kiel, Suez, Panama sure, there should be a blocker province. But with natural straits no. They should be bottlenecks to catch your enemy and that is it. No magic walls please.

I disagree.
Did any RN surface ships operate in the Baltic? Why didn't they, .....suicidal and dangerous.
Bosporus straight is already historically known as a no go zone for shipping if enemy occupy one of the coasts.

The game doesn't model the minutiae of mines, coastal defence, and factoring in a malus for no sea room for a ship to manoeuvre, therefore without being able to simulate the crippling losses of attempting sailing down an enemy held straight, the game needs to make them no go zones. In my view.

I am relieved by the posts stating that this is currently a bug.
 
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TheDerpyBeagle

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I actually thing that straits should not be blocked. Things like Suez and Panama yes, straits like Gibraltar nope. In games so far you can own for instance Gibraltar, not have a single unit, airplane or ship and the straits are blocked... how?! I hated that in previous games.

I reality straits were blocked by mines, air and sea patrols as well as coastal forts. But even then it was not impossible to go though - it was just a question how much damage would you suffer.

Artificial waterways like Kiel, Suez, Panama sure, there should be a blocker province. But with natural straits no. They should be bottlenecks to catch your enemy and that is it. No magic walls please.

If places like GIbraltar did not have a single unit in previous Hearts of Iron games, then you could easily take them, and in my HOI3 experience, the AI took them as well. Unfortunately, without proper mine or coastal battery mechanics implemented, it's impossible to re-create the true bottlenecks of straits like Gibraltar that made them a nightmare for even a single submarine or ship to get through, so the only way to model this efficiently is blocking the straits off with said 'magic walls,' unless Paradox commits to making mines and coastal batteries an actual hazard, which I think they have said that they will not do.
 

Alexander Suvorov

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I agree with the other posters in principle, that natural straights and artificial ones are tactically speaking very different both for the defender who must employ different methods and the ships attempting to pass the straight.

However... I am okay with these being the same in the game.

What I'd like to see with the navies is this; the bug with passing through hostile straights which are currently supposed to be no-go areas to be fixed. the problem with fleets being tied up in never ending battles against 1 submarine to be fixed. other things which are not working as intended to be fixed. At this point, if someone on the HoI4 team a great idea for a fantastic thing, I would want them to think about which DLC to put it in and not how to rush that piece into the game. They are already in beta. Pieces added in this way do not undergo the full testing process and/or prolong the testing process. And no one wants that.

I know they are full of good ideas but the good ideas they come up with at this stage of the project just have to stay as mere ideas for a little while. maybe they will have their chance to shine in a DLC.

Good suggestions like this should be looked at for like say... a naval themed DLC? I would love to see this modeled more elegantly in a navy themed DLC.
 
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LordOfWar16

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Yeah, they are bugged at the moment. If you looked closely in an earlier episode the french navy even took the kiel channel, which certainly wont be possible in the final built. Gibraltar and the Suez channel will lock you out from the mediteranian sea if you are at war with the UK aswell, as long as they controll them of course. Japan certainly wont be able to use the panama channel if it is under US controll either in the final built.
 

jamesd

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I disagree.
Did any RN surface ships operate in the Baltic? Why didn't they, .....suicidal and dangerous.
Bosporus straight is already historically known as a no go zone for shipping if enemy occupy one of the coasts.

The game doesn't model the minutiae of mines, coastal defence, and factoring in a malus for no sea room for a ship to manoeuvre, therefore without being able to simulate the crippling losses of attempting sailing down an enemy held straight, the game needs to make them no go zones. In my view.

I am relieved by the posts stating that this is currently a bug.

Something I found out recently when reading a book on the Overlord campaign was that no RN capital ships traversed the straits of Dover between the evacuation of France and some days or weeks after D-Day - more than 4 years. With such a narrow body of water at that point (although it is 3 sea spaces wide in game) heavy German guns emplaced on the French side combined with mines and bombers made it an unacceptable risk.
 
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Vukodav

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I disagree.
Did any RN surface ships operate in the Baltic? Why didn't they, .....suicidal and dangerous.
Bosporus straight is already historically known as a no go zone for shipping if enemy occupy one of the coasts.

The game doesn't model the minutiae of mines, coastal defence, and factoring in a malus for no sea room for a ship to manoeuvre, therefore without being able to simulate the crippling losses of attempting sailing down an enemy held straight, the game needs to make them no go zones. In my view.

I am relieved by the posts stating that this is currently a bug.

No air cover, mines. There were no magic walls. Bosporus had large forts with coastal artillery and was mined. Having just troops on one shore means nothing.

Game CAN simulate underwater minefields and air patrols. Coastal forts no (and I do not know why, it's the 4th game for crying out loud). But the rest - yes. So instead of putting some effort in blocking the enemy, you now just have to occupy the province. For instance, I could have one garrison division in Gibraltar (no mines, no air cover) and enemy could assemble 100 ships and not be able to pass. How's that for realism?

I guess it is far of in the game development to implement coastal fortification mechanics as they should have done long time ago, but they can at least make minefields. There were some in previous HOI3 mods - a submarine unit usable in coastal provinces (very low range) that could blow up ships if one is detected.

I have no problem for artificial waterways to be blocked, but if you want straits to be blocked, you should invest something in it.

British guardsman: "Look at all those ships chaps! All right now, all three of you - man up, suit up and go on guard duty!"
Erich Raider, looking though his binoculars from the bridge of Bismark: "Oh crap, there are some guards patroling the docks. Well, Fuhrer will go around the twist this time but it is not our fault. How can a combined German-Japanese fleet break through these defenses?! It is impossible!"

And that is how Germany lost the war. The group of those 4 soldiers today is still called "Bismark's Bane" in the German navy.
 
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The Albatross

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If places like GIbraltar did not have a single unit in previous Hearts of Iron games, then you could easily take them, and in my HOI3 experience, the AI took them as well. Unfortunately, without proper mine or coastal battery mechanics implemented, it's impossible to re-create the true bottlenecks of straits like Gibraltar that made them a nightmare for even a single submarine or ship to get through, so the only way to model this efficiently is blocking the straits off with said 'magic walls,' unless Paradox commits to making mines and coastal batteries an actual hazard, which I think they have said that they will not do.

Indeed --- but then again, perhaps the modders will develop such mechanics.
The construction of Coastal Batteries + enhancing strait defences against enemy use applies all over the world.
Singapore - Malacca Straits - Hong Kong - Tsushima etc.
For those considering that Straits are really a small/insignificant detail, perhaps a look at Google's Major Straits of the World, will convince you otherwise!

Major_Global_Straits_---_list.png
 
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Alex_brunius

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I actually thing that straits should not be blocked. Things like Suez and Panama yes, straits like Gibraltar nope. In games so far you can own for instance Gibraltar, not have a single unit, airplane or ship and the straits are blocked... how?! I hated that in previous games.

I reality straits were blocked by mines, air and sea patrols as well as coastal forts. But even then it was not impossible to go though - it was just a question how much damage would you suffer.

All the units used to blockade the straight are extremely cheap and below the scale of the game though... You can't actually build any minelayers, torpedo boats, mini-subs, patrol boats, anti submarines nets, coastal guns that damage ships or any of that stuff in any of the HoI games. And the things you can build like coastal forts represent only the defensive bunkers, not the guns or torpedo emplacements that shoot at ships.

Even a minor power controlling the straight could easily afford enough of these dirt cheap stuff to in effect shut down the straight even for the Royal navy unless they are prepared to lose capital ships passing it. You could even deploy mines from simple fishing boats if your in a pinch and with a few months to prepare put a decent blockade in place. For a demonstration of how easy it is to defend a straight you can study the sinking of Blücher. A state of the art top modern Cruiser (less then a year old) sunk by 40 year old gun emplacements relegated to training duties in a peaceful minor when the element of surprise was on the German side...



The alternative would be to add a unit or building to the game that was extremely cheap, hard to knock out unless you take the provinces by land and only worked in defending narrows and straights + could do serious damage and sink alot of ships trying to pass the straight. But it would be a no-brainer to use it for the defender and no one in their right mind would try to run a straight blockade anyways due to the cost. So in the end the same result is achieved ( except a few more sad new players or AIs that lost their mighty fleets from sailing back and forth through a straight a few time and don't understand why ).
 
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A state of the art top modern Cruiser (less then a year old) sunk by 40 year old gun emplacements relegated to training duties in a peaceful minor when the element of surprise was on the German side...

An other great example is the Battle of Dardanelles in 1915.

The first British line opened fire from Eren Köy Bay around 11:00. Shortly after noon, de Robeck ordered the French line to pass through and close on the Narrows forts. The Ottoman fire began to take its toll with Gaulois, Suffren, Agamemnon and Inflexible all suffering hits. While the naval fire had not destroyed the Ottoman batteries, it had succeeded in temporarily reducing their fire. By 13:25, the Ottoman defences were mostly silent so de Robeck decided to withdraw the French line and bring forward the second British line as well as Swiftsure and Majestic.

But the Allied forces had failed to properly reconnoiter the area and sweep it for mines. Aerial reconnaissance by aircraft from the seaplane carrier HMS Ark Royal had discovered a number of mines on the 16 and 17 March but failed to spot the line of mines laid by the Nusret in Eren Köy Bay.[14] On the day of the attack civilian trawlers sweeping for mines in front of line "A" discovered and destroyed three mines in an area thought to be clear, before the civilian crews withdrew under fire. This information was not passed on to de Robeck[15] and thus, the catastrophe began to unfold. At 13:54, Bouvet—having made a turn to starboard into Eren Köy Bay—struck a mine, capsized and sank within a couple of minutes, killing 639 crewmen. The initial British reaction was that a shell had struck her magazine or she had been torpedoed.

The British pressed on with the attack. Around 16:00, Inflexible began to withdraw and struck a mine near where Bouvet went down, killing thirty crewmen. The battlecruiser remained afloat and eventually beached on the island of Bozcaada (Tenedos).

Irresistible was the next to be mined. As she began to drift helplessly, the crew were taken off. De Robeck told Ocean to take Irresistible under tow but the water was deemed too shallow to make an approach. Finally at 18:05,Ocean struck a mine which jammed the steering gear leaving her likewise helpless. The abandoned battleships were still floating when the British withdrew. A destroyer commanded by Commodore Roger Keyes returned later to attempt either to tow away or sink the stricken vessels but despite searching for four hours, there was no sign of them.
 
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Vukodav

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All the units used to blockade the straight are extremely cheap and below the scale of the game though... You can't actually build any minelayers, torpedo boats, mini-subs, patrol boats, anti submarines nets, coastal guns that damage ships or any of that stuff in any of the HoI games. And the things you can build like coastal forts represent only the defensive bunkers, not the guns or torpedo emplacements that shoot at ships.

Even a minor power controlling the straight could easily afford enough of these dirt cheap stuff to in effect shut down the straight even for the Royal navy unless they are prepared to lose capital ships passing it. You could even deploy mines from simple fishing boats if your in a pinch and with a few months to prepare put a decent blockade in place. For a demonstration of how easy it is to defend a straight you can study the sinking of Blücher. A state of the art top modern Cruiser (less then a year old) sunk by 40 year old gun emplacements relegated to training duties in a peaceful minor when the element of surprise was on the German side...



The alternative would be to add a unit or building to the game that was extremely cheap, hard to knock out unless you take the provinces by land and only worked in defending narrows and straights + could do serious damage and sink alot of ships trying to pass the straight. But it would be a no-brainer to use it for the defender and no one in their right mind would try to run a straight blockade anyways due to the cost. So in the end the same result is achieved ( except a few more sad new players that lost their mighty fleets from sailing back and forth through a straight a few time and don't understand why ).

Even with naval blockade the straits are not closed 100%. You risk damage or sinking but it is not closed. You should be able to force the entrance.

You all talk in terms of a single ship going through. I am speaking in terms of fleets - you are telling me that RN could not go through Gibraltar if Spain takes it? Not bloody likely. They would force their way through. Let's say you have a fleet of 100 ships, and they cannot by any means go through straits that you control. Not even if they take damage. Simply - no go zone, magic wall.

Nope, I am not willing to buy that - that is just lazy.

Mines were made in some HOI3 mods and worked nice. As for coastal forts - even at late stage of development you can do that. Just like fleet can shore bombard a coastal province coastal forts should provide bonuses for "sea bombardment". It is just another effect that would go the other way.

There are many simple ways to enhance the realism in this regard. And it is a shame that in the 4th game of the series you still have almost useless coastal forts and no way to damage fleets from the coast.

Instead of building up and growing, the game just tweaks a few things, abstracts some more effects and slaps on a new graphic. That is what EA does. EA = bad. Don't be like EA.
 
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Wraith11B

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@Alex_brunius, I think that we could have a mechanic for that: for areas labelled as "straits", a "nautical fort"-esque thing. As hull increases (on a per-ship basis), the chance of attrition (and high attrition... for this example I'll start the bidding at say, automatic 50%) goes up. Thus, forcing a strait with a high-hull fleet is going to result in significant material casualties (which can result in a failed attempt at a crossing). However, one or two subs at a time might be able to sneak through.
 
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