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unmerged(49128)

Second Lieutenant
Oct 4, 2005
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Introducing tactical combat!?

So far any tactical combat is represented by combat events which have a certain probability of occurring. You have no direct control over these.
I propose that HoI3 should take this abstraction away and allow the player to choose specific tactics.

When the little screen for initiating an attack comes up, you should also be able to choose the appropriate tactics. For example, you could choose frontal attack, or armoured wedge, or encirclement, or flank attack, or infiltration etc. All of these would be dependent on the type of unit which is attacking and which land doctrines have been developed. So blitzkrieg may give you the armoured wedge, whereas human wave limits your choices to frontal attack. The point is that each brings distinct advantages and also disadvantages. As you progress through the land doctrine path you of course expand your repertoire of tactics.
Similarly, the defense should also be able to chose its tactics. Initially I was thinking there might be two ways of doing this. When attacked, a window would pop up asking which tactic you would want to use. However, I was thinking that this might become somewhat arduous if the computer is continuously attacking you on several fronts with windows constantly popping up and demanding your attention... Instead, a unit might be instructed in advance to take a particular defensive stance whenever it is idle, just like all land units currently automatically start digging in. Again the various defensive tactics available would depend on land doctrine development, but these could for example be elastic defense, static defense, to the last man, rear-guard, even counter attack.
Another thing which comes to mind is that intelligence gathering could come in and play a role here. Using the various intelligence you may be able to discern which tactics your enemy is using. This will allow you to chose the most appropriate tactic to counter the enemy. So in this case certain attacks will be more effective against certain defences and vice versa. As an example, if you find out that enemy units in a neighbouring province are using a static defense, you could instruct you tanks to conduct an encirclement and thereby gain an attack bonus. However, if you do not have access to such info, then you would have to base your tactics on the strengths of your units and hope for the best!

I realise that this would introduce more micromanagement and clicking, but imho tactics could in this way be really satisfying.
First of all, you'll need a certain amount of skill in order to get the most out of this feature. So much so that you could maybe be able to turn the tables on a stronger opponent, one which on paper should defeat you...
Plus you'll have immediate feedback on your decisions in the form of a victory or defeat. Just like in HoI2 when you get that self-satisfied grin on your face after you finally pull off the encirclement that'll turn the tide :D
Maybe this could re-emphasize actual fighting by giving it added importance.
 
Last edited:

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Whereas I am not personally against tactical simulations (in fact I truly get a kick out them), I'm not sure HOI is the best place to do that. Remember, we're at the divisional level of combat, the operational level of war. At that level, the "tactics" are done, moving across large amounts of land (provinces). Most of the things you want here, are already going on, just "under the hood".
 

RoMMeL DvAz

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ecnan02 said:
Whereas I am not personally against tactical simulations (in fact I truly get a kick out them), I'm not sure HOI is the best place to do that. Remember, we're at the divisional level of combat, the operational level of war. At that level, the "tactics" are done, moving across large amounts of land (provinces). Most of the things you want here, are already going on, just "under the hood".

I agree, this would be a nightmare only managing east front :wacko:
 

unmerged(49128)

Second Lieutenant
Oct 4, 2005
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ecnan02 said:
Most of the things you want here, are already going on, just "under the hood".

I know they are just under the hood, but do nonetheless have a role to play in influencing combat. All I'm suggesting is that next to ticking the box for 'synchronized arrival', 'attack', 'support defense', you can tick the appropriate tactic. Apart from that, the game takes care of the rest automatically. You could even let the game remember which choice you made last time around and let that become the default option until you change it by choosing a different option.
 

Hollandia

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I like the idea, but it's pretty much the same as the Risk game for the PC. There you could attack and then a screen shows up where you can choose to attack left, right, frontal, from behind or whatever. And more tactics became available as the general in command got more more experience and stuff. However, if they decide to use this in HoI 3, I can imagine a battle will give the loser much mroe casualties and disadvantages then the way a lost battle is simulated in HoI 2.
 

Pal

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This is almost surely implemented, as the new command structure will involve a command AI. So you might get to set "stances" (aggressive/protective) and then the commanders chose the tactics according to land doctrine and personal preferences. At least this is what I would do if I was going to program a command structure.
 

Brasidas

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No interest at all. It's a high-level strategy game, and this is adding extra clicking for me, extra complexity for the AI, and it adds nothing to my experience.
 

Minodrin

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Brasidas said:
No interest at all. It's a high-level strategy game, and this is adding extra clicking for me, extra complexity for the AI, and it adds nothing to my experience.

I quite agree.
 

unmerged(13008)

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On top of multiplying micro-management, I wonder what the benefit would be?

If you decide HOW to attack, from a list of possible options, you will always end up with good choices, and bad choices, right? I mean, you want control, not chance.
But then what is the reason for choosing? As soon as YOU know what´s best, you simply choose it, an leave the rest blank. Only poor AI will be trapped in dullness, I presume.

Right now you have your commander deciding, your doctrines and professionaltiy. I think that´s all we need.
Unexperienced commanders don´t get better, just because some far away Head of State tells them how to engage in a battle, after all.
 

unmerged(47302)

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Aug 8, 2005
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Increasing number of provinces is, in my opinion, enough for further tactical aspect.
I am confident that breakthrough, firebrigades, encirclement, recon., defense ag.amphibious landing will have a real meaning in HOI3 just thanks to the number of provinces.

HOI is a world scale game therefore should remain most of the time at high decision level.

If people want to enjoy all tactical aspects of WW2, they should try other games.
Many are already on the market.
 

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Well now that there are far more and therefore smaller provinces there may be a use for that kind of thing. Micromanagement might be a problem but it could be automated to an extent.

First priority would be an option for Panzer breakthrough. Tanks attack front lines and after a certain amount of combat (depending on the defenders strength and doctrine) the tank divisions can break through and continue moving through to the next province without the defenders going into retreat. Then the division is surrounded but not totally broken as a combat force.

Imo that would help simulate the blitzkrieg tactics that made Germany so successful early on. Other countries wouldn't have the doctrines needed to counter it giving the Germans a huge advantage. Then as the game progresses the AI would be able to stop this with a change of tactics making it much harder for the German player.

IRL the tactics and training made the biggest difference. How else did the Germans consistently dominate larger and even better equipped armies from 1939-41? I think emphasizing tactics and doctrine would really help to balance this game. Germany could have a more realistically lower IC while still being able to dominate early. As is everything is too abstract and balanced in a way that detracts from realism.
 

unmerged(79123)

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Jun 25, 2007
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Lazy_Boy said:
IRL the tactics and training made the biggest difference. How else did the Germans consistently dominate larger and even better equipped armies from 1939-41? I think emphasizing tactics and doctrine would really help to balance this game. Germany could have a more realistically lower IC while still being able to dominate early. As is everything is too abstract and balanced in a way that detracts from realism.

Doctrine DOES simulate this already in HoI2. German org gives them a big edge on the Allies during that time frame. That edge is because of the more advanced German tactics and training and their more experienced officer corps.

Plus I wouldn't say the German's were able to dominate larger and better equipped armies from 1939-1941. Look at their massive edge in aircraft during the invasion of France.

And of course a lot of stuff is going to be abstracted. It's not a full fledged hard-core war game, nor is it meant to be.
 

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mwiggins said:
Doctrine DOES simulate this already in HoI2. German org gives them a big edge on the Allies during that time frame. That edge is because of the more advanced German tactics and training and their more experienced officer corps.

Plus I wouldn't say the German's were able to dominate larger and better equipped armies from 1939-1941. Look at their massive edge in aircraft during the invasion of France.

And of course a lot of stuff is going to be abstracted. It's not a full fledged hard-core war game, nor is it meant to be.

Yes I know it gives them a slight advantage. But Germany was able to defeat an army of equal manpower (the French actually outnumbered them in tanks) in mere weeks because of their doctrine and plan being such a revolutionary surprise to the allies. I just think that needs to be specifically simulated. More territories might help to allow for specific tactics by the player but I don't think it's enough to simulate the real situations of the time.

In multiplayer yeah it should be pretty much equal grounds but the single player at least should simulate the real tactical advantages Germany had in the beginning, with allied technology canceling it out and the massive industry overrunning them.
 

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Actually, it wasn't German tactics that broke the Allies, it was the strategic plan and its execution by some extremely aggressive and intelligent commanders. HOI already simulates this quite nicely with its leadership simulation.

Some definitions from FM 1-02:

Tactics - (DOD) The level of war at which battles and engagements are planned
and executed to accomplish military objectives assigned to tactical units or task forces.
Activities at this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements
in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

Operational - (DOD) The level of war at which campaigns and major operations
are planned, conducted, and sustained to accomplish strategic objectives within theaters or
operational areas. Activities at this level link tactics and strategy by establishing operational
objectives needed to accomplish the strategic objectives, sequencing events to achieve the
operational objectives, initiating actions, and applying resources to bring about and sustain
these events. These activities imply a broader dimension of time or space than do tactics;
they ensure the logistic and administrative support of tactical forces, and provide the means
by which tactical successes are exploited to achieve strategic objectives. See also strategic
level of war; tactical level of war. See FM 3-0.

Strategic - The level of war at which a nation, often as a member of a
group of nations, determines national or multinational (alliance or coalition) strategic
security objectives and guidance, and develops and uses national resources to accomplish
these objectives. Activities at this level establish national and multinational military
objectives; sequence initiatives; define limits and assess risks for the use of military and
other instruments of national power; develop global plans or theater war plans to achieve
these objectives; and provide military forces and other capabilities in accordance with
strategic plans.
 

unmerged(49128)

Second Lieutenant
Oct 4, 2005
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As many here are pointing out, HoI is a grand strategy game and should certainly remains so. The question, I suppose, is how strictly do you want to adhere to that concept?

In addition to grand strategy, the game also has a decidedly operational element, e.g. "in order to take Moscow I need first to take Minsk, then Smolensk and finally aim for Moscow" (each objective on the way to Moscow is an operational objective and not grand strategic). Furthermore, in carrying out such operations you will make a long string of certain smaller "tactical" decisions vis-a-vis terrain, weather, enemy dispositions etc...(of course many other things relating to tactics remain abstract).

What I'm saying is that a game that is purely focused on the grand strategic level is monotonous and boring. In order to make it more involving you need to add more dimensions to it, hence the necessary emphasis on operations and a certain tactical creep.
Finding the right balance, I suppose, is the trick. Does adding some more tactics spoil the balance? For my part, I don't think it does, but it would seem that most people, at least in this thread, are against that idea and if so, then PI should take note. Because if what Pal has mentioned is true, then we may experience a shift in game dynamics!

Pal said:
This is almost surely implemented, as the new command structure will involve a command AI. So you might get to set "stances" (aggressive/protective) and then the commanders chose the tactics according to land doctrine and personal preferences. At least this is what I would do if I was going to program a command structure.

Maybe PI should give us some more information about what exactly they are planning?

How should we interpret this quote from Gamespot:

"Paradox hopes to let players be as hands-on or hands-off as they like"
(http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/heartsofironiii/news.html?sid=6196651&mode=previews)
 
Last edited:
Aug 26, 2008
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I would rather see the fase off battle like in CK - without controling it off course. The units do not clash at once and have a big engagement. I dont think that to many tactics are good. IMO the new map will give us enough tactical combat.