Into The Fire: An Alternate History Mod

[bean1]

Where did you get that map? Did you make it?

I like the map save for a few things:

-How did Finland get annexed back into Russia? I'm assuming the Soviet Union won the Winter War, but that comes off as even more unrealistic then the Nazis' grand dreams for Europe!

-Is Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, etc. independent, or have loyal regimes just been installed that support the Germans?

-A Kingdom of Italy based in Sicily comes off as implausible as well.

 

[T.j. Arnold]

-A Kingdom of Italy based in Sicily comes off as implausible as well.

I think it's more like a government in exile.

 

[Easy1]

Where did you get that map? Did you make it?

I like the map save for a few things:

-How did Finland get annexed back into Russia? I'm assuming the Soviet Union won the Winter War, but that comes off as even more unrealistic then the Nazis' grand dreams for Europe!

-Is Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, etc. independent, or have loyal regimes just been installed that support the Germans?

-A Kingdom of Italy based in Sicily comes off as implausible as well.

It's from Deviantart (a really cool page) and based on a short by Harry Turtledove - Manstein kills Hitler in 1943 and seizes power in a military coup, manages to force the Soviets to a stalemate peace in the east, and then repulses the abortive D-Day landings and drives the Allies out of Italy. The result is a four-power cold war consisting of Nazi Germany, the USSR, the British Empire and the United States.

It's not exactly based on a complete Nazi victory plot, but I find this post-war map somehow more appealing and realistic than those we are all familiar with.

I suggest the following changes from given map.

• Put Denmark, Iceland, The Netherlands, Bohemia-Moravia, Norway, Sweden and all Baltic republics under German control.
• Give Burgundy to Germany (it was supposed to become an independent SS country)
• Italian social republic is changed to Mussolini's Italy
• Give German speaking part of Switzerland to Germany and the rest to France and Italy.
• Give Crimea, Gibraltar, Crete and Cyprus and Suez to Germany
• Greater Finland and greater Romania
• Move Poland eastwards, put Lvov and Rovno under Polish control and Krakow under German control.
• Between the Eastern border of Germany, Poland And Romania are German puppet states. Ingira, Gotengau etc. (these were actually planned to be materialized). Point is that everything in the European part of Russia is put under the control of a Germanic aristocracy, and as such earlier Germanic empires are restored.

As for Balkan and the Mediterranean, I'm undecided

 

[whatguts]

what about instead of the red scare in Britain and America, they have the grey scare?

 

[unmerged(82211)]

• Put Denmark, Iceland, The Netherlands, Bohemia-Moravia, Norway, Sweden and all Baltic republics under German control.
• Give Burgundy to Germany (it was supposed to become an independent SS country)
• Italian social republic is changed to Mussolini's Italy
• Give German speaking part of Switzerland to Germany and the rest to France and Italy.
• Give Crimea, Gibraltar, Crete and Cyprus and Suez to Germany
• Greater Finland and greater Romania
• Move Poland eastwards, put Lvov and Rovno under Polish control and Krakow under German control.
• Between the Eastern border of Germany, Poland And Romania are German puppet states. Ingira, Gotengau etc. (these were actually planned to be materialized). Point is that everything in the European part of Russia is put under the control of a Germanic aristocracy, and as such earlier Germanic empires are restored.

I agree with most of these suggestions, but I would suggest myself the following:

• Let Iceland as independent country or controlled by an Allied one like Canada or USA.
• Let Swiss untouched. During the war Germans (and others) had reasons to respect their neutrality, even 'cause "economic" purposes.
• IMO the Italian effort deserves Suez.
• I personally don't agree with a Polish, Ingirean, Gotengau, etc puppet states, if Germans are still involved in a stalemate against Soviets.
• Why put Romania as puppet? It's an Axis member, as Hungary after all.
• Get rid of that "Kingdom of Italy" thing.
• Also, important: Greece and Albania should be in Italian hands...

Only suggestions, though.

I would really see an European map drawn by mr. Bean1!

 

[bean1]

I'll make my own map from a blank copy soon in my next post with my own additions and/or changes.

 

[unmerged(309921)]

Independent Macedonia

I would like to propose something that is not much important at the moment but you can consider it later. It's about a brand new small nation that can be added, which will bring something different and interesting to the mod.

I see on the map posted by Easy1 that half of Macedonia is annexed by Bulgaria, and the other half by Greece although it was planned differently. Bulgaria in both World Wars joined on the side against Serbia and Greece just to liberate and unite Macedonia, as the Macedonian people were the closest to the Bulgarian on the Balkans. The three parts of Macedonia are Vardar(which was held by Serbia), Aegean(held by Greece) and Pirin(held by Bulgaria). You know that during WW2 when German forces occupied the area, most of Yugoslav Macedonia and part of Aegean Macedonia were transferred for administration to Bulgaria. So if it is going to be alternate history mod where Axis won the war I suggest you to create the country Macedonia as a puppet state of Bulgaria, as it was planned by the Bulgarian government during the war.

Here's some information about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Macedonia_(1944)

A picture of Independent Macedonia saying:
"For Her we are fighting.
For Her we are dying." in Bulgarian

A Bulgarian newspaper named "Independent Macedonia".

 

[unmerged(82211)]

Well, with Greece in Italians hands release Macedonia sounds pretty unlikely, but... it adds the quest of adding a new nation in, since Macedonia isn't in DH vanilla AFAIK.

 

[bean1]

Well, with Greece in Italians hands release Macedonia sounds pretty unlikely, but... it adds the quest of adding a new nation in, since Macedonia isn't in DH vanilla AFAIK.

Adding in Macedonia sounds like a good idea. But it won't be a prime concern at first.

 

[razorbird789]

What if China and Japan had signed a Bitter Peace?

I really dislike the idea of Churchill be in power during the 50's. After the defeat in WW2 certainly he would be highly blamed and probably would be forced to retire. Another possibility would be that the Germans (or maybe not them) managed to kill him, so the way to sign a peace treaty in 1941 was unobstructed.

Two completely different ideas to think about, although i would prefer for my all time political hero to not be assassinated......

 

[bean1]

Two completely different ideas to think about, although i would prefer for my all time political hero to not be assassinated......

Don't worry, I won't kill him off.

I plan for him to be disgraced and simply out of office by 1950.


As for the current map, I like it but it's not my own. It's Turtledove's(let's be honest). I'm probably going to stick with my original idea for a Fatherland-styled map(almost-total Axis victory)

Concerning Turtledove's map, I really think a (greater) USSR existing alongside a victorious Third Reich is baloney. After the Nazi invasion of the Motherland, I highly doubt the Russians would stop short at a negotiated cease fire.

D-Day failing is OK, but assuming my AH goes my way, D-Day would never have occurred.

I think it's more realistic to assume the Nazis DID achieve their wartime objectives; After all they weren't impossible in my mind, as some try to assert.

The only thing stopping a Nazi victory at Moscow ironically was the generals themselves; They actually got around several dozen miles outside the city but all of them, from Guderian down/up, decided to withdraw, angering Hitler. If they had more backbone who knows what would've happened.

For AH purposes, having them win at Moscow is fine in my book. I'm keeping a Pacific stalemate in there as well.

 

[unmerged(82211)]

Let me give a suggestion (another one ) ... why don't you start the mod around 1944, just after the peace between allies and axis?
You would have a good bunch of event possibilities that could lead the nations to a way where another WW would happen only abount 5 or 10 years (you could even use some post-WW2 non-agression pacts), and you could let the chinese/soviet fronts pretty untouched, with war ongoing. Also, the nukes concern wouldn't be so difficult to handle, it's just a quest of desingn a path where AI or player could follow (perhaps using decisions) to achieve them in a couple of years.

 

[bean1]

Let me give a suggestion (another one ) ... why don't you start the mod around 1944, just after the peace between allies and axis?
You would have a good bunch of event possibilities that could lead the nations to a way where another WW would happen only abount 5 or 10 years (you could even use some post-WW2 non-agression pacts), and you could let the chinese/soviet fronts pretty untouched, with war ongoing. Also, the nukes concern wouldn't be so difficult to handle, it's just a quest of desingn a path where AI or player could follow (perhaps using decisions) to achieve them in a couple of years.

I was planning to have WWIII start in 1952 or 1953 following the 1952 U.S. presidential election, depending on who you vote into office.

I don't want to set it in 1944, for that would be too soon after the end of WWII.

 

[unmerged(82211)]

That's exactly the point... you don't start WW3 right after the end of WW2, but you will have all that ~5 years of interbellum to prepare for WW3 as you wish to.

And for Ger/Jap player, try to put an end on Sov/Chi...

 

[bean1]

I'll think about it.

 

[bean1]

Is this what you meant by an extended Poland deep into Soviet territory:



The black line is my original cutoff-Where I think it will be more realistic if Poland is much smaller then what you see here. Thoughts?

I've also added an independent Serbia.

Both nations are German puppets.

Also, should I add Bessarabia to Romania, or would I be pushing it on the a-historical factor there?

IMHO, I think that Polish territory should not extend beyond that black line-I.E. it's territory should be relegated to south-central Polish territory.

Bessarabia should be part of the USSR, as I'm sure that Romanian forces, even with German reinforcements from France, wouldn't be able to hold such a large sliver of territory.

 

[unmerged(440552)]

Anyone wanna help me do minister pics(I use gimp and don't know how to make them anyways)? paste 'em here for me. I'll get a list of ministers to be used in-game soon.

Count with me.

 

[bean1]

Here is the eastern front, as requested(?) circa 1950:



should it be changed to be much smaller? I was thinking of drastically reducing Poland's size(or scrapping Poland altogether) and of removing German control over Lithuania/the lower half of the Baltic nations region.

Thoughts?

 

[RedNomNoms]

Thoughts?

Are Germany and the Soviet Union still at war, or has Germany won and forced some sort of peace treaty?

 

[datachild]

The only thing stopping a Nazi victory at Moscow ironically was the generals themselves; They actually got around several dozen miles outside the city but all of them, from Guderian down/up, decided to withdraw, angering Hitler. If they had more backbone who knows what would've happened.

There were really good reasons why the generals wanted to withdraw. Main point was that the supply lines were more than overstreched. Further pushing for Moscow could have lead to some kind of Stalingrad in early 42. This combined with the greatly underestimated capacity of the SOV to replace their losses made victory more or less impossible and lead to the final outcome. Only way would have been to make many more encirclements similar to the beginning of the war. This again would have been impossible with the overstreched front line by the end of 1941.

If possible it would be nice to see the (still ongoing?) struggel between military leadership, ns leadershipt and ss leadership with their own goals. Maybe the reason russia isn't defeated is some kind of military coup (internal struggle) within the Reich after victory seemed certain to prevent the decent of OKW into anonymity. Hitler started early to gain full control over OKH. The SS was another way to create military totaly loyal to the system. The old guard (meaning the OKW leadership) was very concerned about this. During this reorganisation SU could have had the time to reorganize and prevent anihilation.