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razorbird789

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It was just an idea. Indeed, the Conservatives wold be wholly discredited no doubt. And no, I never mentioned a military takeover. My idea was to have a stronger emphasis on colonial holdings(whatever Britain has left) and on the military.

No doubt civilian government would still exist, with an eroded democracy(stronger fascist movement, emphasis on military buildup, etc.) and the Labour Party in power. As for Moseley, he should have a role in politics too seeing as to how Fascism has "triumphed" on mainland Europe. Historically he reverted back to syndicalist politics after the defeat of Nazi Germany.

i think things would be better with Churchill in power somehow.... I very much doubt that Communism would gain loads of favour in the UK at that time when the royal family and Churchill rallied the people during the blitz. Churchill would be very pro american and democracy in this scenario and want revenge on Britain so i think he should start in power throughout the war then be granted 'special' power during the ongoing crises because he's a brilliant war minister. Or maybe he could try to rally a defeated Britain under an isolationist Labour to war under the conservatives?

Either way i don't like Mosley... ;)
 

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Although Moseley in this scenario probably wouldn't be able to seize power, we have to consider the fact that he would play a bigger role in contemporary(1950) British politics.

As for Churchill, would he even still be Prime Minister after a defeat on all (colonial) fronts during WWII? I'd imagine him being severely discredited, who unlike Stalin, couldn't use pure fear to stay in power.

Or maybe he could try to rally a defeated Britain under an isolationist Labour to war under the conservatives?

I do like this idea of him remaining Prime Minister however under a new Labour Party government, and possibly being granted 'special, emergency powers' following the end of the war, effectively prolonging his term for however long the crises continue.

As for FDR, if the war turned south in both the Pacific and in North Africa, I'm guessing he'd lose the '44 election to Thomas E. Dewey. MacArthur, judging by his success rate in the Pacific, wouldn't even get a mention from the Republicans. Alternative Republican presidents in '44 could be John W. Bricker, Harold Stassen, Robert Taft, or Wendell Willkie.

In '48 an incumbent Thomas E. Dewey would/could no doubt win, and would thus be president by 1950, running on an isolationist platform.
 
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Indefatigable

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It was just an idea. Indeed, the Conservatives wold be wholly discredited no doubt. And no, I never mentioned a military takeover. My idea was to have a stronger emphasis on colonial holdings(whatever Britain has left) and on the military.

No doubt civilian government would still exist, with an eroded democracy(stronger fascist movement, emphasis on military buildup, etc.) and the Labour Party in power. As for Moseley, he should have a role in politics too seeing as to how Fascism has "triumphed" on mainland Europe. Historically he reverted back to syndicalist politics after the defeat of Nazi Germany.

No worries, I was just suggesting an idea as well. Someone earlier mentioned a military dominated democracy, which I in turn associated (improperly) with military takeover.

Britain's fascist movement had lost what little credibility it had before the war even started. I am not sure that it would be able to gain traction, especially if it was the ideology of Britain's enemies and especially if led by Moseley.

I think you are right about the dependence on the colonies. The post-war Labour government really pushed for colonial development (CDC, etc.) so that sort of thing could be in full force. Maybe a stronger sterling area? Countries, particularly the US, and maybe Germany and Japan will want the valuable rubber and oil in Britain's colonies (or as you say, what's left of them).
 

LouiST

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1. The mod sounds great. I wonder if Reinhard Heydrich is killed in the timeline ? As in the Fatherland novel he's not dead and becomes a prominent figure in the Reich.

2. You seem to mention nothing about China. If according to your timeline the Imperial Japan is still there it's likely that China is militarily occupied. Resistance should be fierce due to the war crimes committed by the Japanese Army and the general anti-Japanese sentiment at the time.

If Japan fails to control China, I guess Germany or America can choose to intervene directly, or supplying materials to the factions(pro-Allies/Japan) to create a proxy war.

ps. I would be interested if someone can make an alt. history mod in which China succeeds in mordernization and became a Japan-like superpower :p
 
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bean1

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Indeed. Fascism was discredited in the British Isles the day Mosley tried to take power in a failed "March on London", with his Irish counterparts attempting a similar, failed "March on Dublin" in the 1930's.

The Labour Party should definitely be in power, with a Prime Minister post held quite possibly by Winston Churchill, if only for the "cool factor."(which I'm reluctant to do)

What do you all think about Winston Churchill still being Prime Minister in 1950?

What's left of the British colonies will no doubt be held onto viciously!

...becomes a prominent figure in the Reich.

Rommel would no doubt become a prominent figure in the Third Reich by virtue of having aided the Italians in seizing the Suez Canal in '42-3

As for Reinhard Heydrich, realistically speaking, he could survive. What his role would be in post-war society is a different manner.

As for Rommel, I was thinking of having him stationed in European Russia fighting the Soviets on the front lines. Is that improbable? Just a thought.
 
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LouiST

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I think placing Rommel in European Russia can be the result of deciding to treat the locals in a better way as Rommel had records of openly opposing orders to use forced labours in France
 

unmerged(82211)

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What if China and Japan had signed a Bitter Peace?

I really dislike the idea of Churchill be in power during the 50's. After the defeat in WW2 certainly he would be highly blamed and probably would be forced to retire. Another possibility would be that the Germans (or maybe not them) managed to kill him, so the way to sign a peace treaty in 1941 was unobstructed.
 

bean1

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...it's likely that China is militarily occupied. Resistance should be fierce due to the war crimes committed by the Japanese Army and the general anti-Japanese sentiment at the time.

I'd imagine it would be hard to control all of China judging by how the Japanese occupiers treated Chinese people in general during the war.

By 1950 however, would organized, armed, communist and/or Nationalist resistance still exist? I'd imagine by then that things would gradually calm down, with maybe sporadic revolts here and there amongst workers or peasants.

This could seriously raise dissent across China regardless, making a Japanese player commit troops to China instead of across the Pacific.

Like with western Russia, dissent across militarily-occupied China would create a thorn in the backside of an otherwise mighty Japanese Empire. I don't see a proxy war as too realistic, especially because this would require a sneaking maneuver into Japanese-controlled ports, let alone an intricate smuggling operation across China by the Americans.

As for nuclear weapons, should Japan have them? I know that during the war, Japan really didn't have much in the way of producing A-Bombs. But after, would it be like with the USSR wherein they "discovered" how to make them and eventually got the bomb? A nuclear-armed Japan would basically deter any sort of U.S. meddling in China, especially from an isolationist president such as Dewey.

As for the Soviets, they shouldn't have nukes necessarily seeing as to how they begin in the scenario(weak, isolated, reduced to waging a guerrilla war).

Of course Nazi Germany should possess nukes. Britain shouldn't, but should have them placed on the island sometime early on during the game.

Perhaps after Dewey leaves office after his second term is up, a staunch, more aggressive president should take power in 1952?
 

RedNomNoms

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For China, maybe the more coastal areas could be directly annexed and more distant parts as a puppet state?
 

coolguy684

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For Germany a point of tension domestically could be the role of the Waffen-SS vs the army. Assuming victory of the Axis, the 38or so Waffen SS "divisions" (only divisions on paper) could have the time to expand into full strength forces. There could be events where the army sorta battles it out with the Waffen SS for certain roles, such as governance of occupied territories in the east, during the process of colonization. (colonization would take several years, IMHO) Perhaps the player could have the choice to place SS generals such as Hausser or Steiner as high up as "Chief of Army"?

As for Hitler's successor, that could be another point of tension. Goering was officially the successor, but he was incredibly discredited in real life. I'm not sure of his status in this mod, but other candidates are Bormann, Goebbels, Speer(perhaps not ruthless enough?). Probably nobody in the SS could be actual Head of State for the same reason Beria could never replace Stalin. People hated and feared him too much.

EDIT: I like the idea of a "Cuban Missile Crisis" on Britain. A Cold War between the Axis and Allies is definitely plausible. And a German-Japanese Split akin to the RL Sino-Soviet Split could happen as well. The USA and Germany should definitely be the two superpowers that emerge. Gradual autonomy of occupied Europe such as France and Norway could be a decision of the player, such as whether to keep direct Army control, or to let puppet states control, or to have true autonomy like the early war status of the Italians and Balkan states. Also, I would think the Atlantic Wall would be very much complete by 1950, so some static garrisons at the beaches would be in order. I was going to say to put coastal forts, but does the AI freak out at forts and simply never attack?

As for China, would a Nationalist "National Redoubt" based around Yunnan, a seized Tibet, Sinkiang, Xibei, and Chungking hold out against the Japanese and have an uneasy peace? Depending on the status of India, the USA could have a rump Republic of China be a counterweight to Japan's general dominance of most of China.
 
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LouiST

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I'd imagine it would be hard to control all of China judging by how the Japanese occupiers treated Chinese people in general during the war.

By 1950 however, would organized, armed, communist and/or Nationalist resistance still exist? I'd imagine by then that things would gradually calm down, with maybe sporadic revolts here and there amongst workers or peasants.

This could seriously raise dissent across China regardless, making a Japanese player commit troops to China instead of across the Pacific.

It's possible that the Nationalists are still here if the Japanese signs a bitter peace or if they militarily occupied the whole China via puppet governments with Nationalists like Wang Jingwei. The communists however are very likely to vanish as they do not receive support from the defeated USSR.
 

unmerged(82211)

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As for nuclear weapons, should Japan have them? I know that during the war, Japan really didn't have much in the way of producing A-Bombs. But after, would it be like with the USSR wherein they "discovered" how to make them and eventually got the bomb? A nuclear-armed Japan would basically deter any sort of U.S. meddling in China, especially from an isolationist president such as Dewey.

As for the Soviets, they shouldn't have nukes necessarily seeing as to how they begin in the scenario(weak, isolated, reduced to waging a guerrilla war).

Of course Nazi Germany should possess nukes. Britain shouldn't, but should have them placed on the island sometime early on during the game.

Perhaps after Dewey leaves office after his second term is up, a staunch, more aggressive president should take power in 1952?

I was thinking about it yesterday too... IMO nukes are the most complicated thing to include in such a scenario, where USSR and Germany keep a war. If GER gets nukes, they certainly would use'm very often against the unsurrender SOV cities and stacks (specially ingame this would give an advantage to achieve a breakthrough).
Also, even USA hadn't created the Project Manhattan as IRL, I think they would have nukes at 1951, while JAP won't (they're spending too many resources in regular weapons and increasing the navy).

So, even in 1951 a nuke would still be a decisive weapon.

IMO Germans should be in the edge of achieve it, aiming to use into rockets (Mini. Fission Bomb tech), but shouldn't start with any nuke in the pool. Today everybody knows that they where much more delayed in this research than the Allies' propaganda had make everybody to believe in that timeframe.

Second, USA should have some in pool. With their strategic bombers up to date, it would represent a nice threat to anybody that would chalenge the Americans in the beggining.

I also don't see reasons to UK have evoluted too much in this research branch, due internal concerns after the WW2 defeat, and USSR is also unlikely in this concept.

Another point: the continued war between GER and SOV should have reduced the German manpower a lot. Soviets may have high stacks in the "border", but to avoyd them just overrun the German defenses, they should be very crapy, unprepared and outdated divisions, IMHO.
 

bean1

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they should be very crappy, unprepared and outdated divisions, IMHO.

Most, if not all of their elite divisions from the war would be in shambles, if not completely destroyed by 1950.

I think that they should have many militia units, to symbolize their arming of the local, militarily-inexperienced populace, and to offset weak stacks with high numbers.

as for actual infantry-based(IE trained) Red Army units, they should be a ragtag bunch, using outdated weaponry from WWII and/or "scavenged" German guns, yet should have higher morale then Germans for patriotic reasons.

The Germans should have advanced, 1950 weaponry, as well as planes. Soviets should have outdated anti-aircraft guns to use as defense on unit and in the provinces.

MP50 sub-machine guns, Vampir night-vision rifles, etc. etc. should all be at the German's fingertips(in game to be represented by tech tree improvements and advanced, 1950-era troops)


Anyone wanna help me do minister pics(I use gimp and don't know how to make them anyways)? paste 'em here for me. I'll get a list of ministers to be used in-game soon.
 

Indefatigable

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We should remember that the Americans were only able to develop their nuclear weapons with British, Canadian and French help. The Brits and French were way ahead of the Americans (and Germans) in terms of nuclear development.

Would the absence of British, Canadian and French scientists hurt the American program?

I know there is the whole British missile crisis idea (which is an excellent idea), but why wouldn't the British nuclear program be more advanced. I realize that resources went elsewhere post-war, but as mentioned, some of the most important scientists on the Manhattan Project were British. Although I agree that they should perhaps not actually have nuclear weapons seeing as how that didn't happen in real life until the 1950s.
 

unmerged(82211)

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I know there is the whole British missile crisis idea (which is an excellent idea), but why wouldn't the British nuclear program be more advanced. I realize that resources went elsewhere post-war, but as mentioned, some of the most important scientists on the Manhattan Project were British. Although I agree that they should perhaps not actually have nuclear weapons seeing as how that didn't happen in real life until the 1950s.
IMO the point is that all the nuclear program of everybody that IRL achieved nukes in the later 40's and early 50's would be delayed because of the different outcoming of the WW2.
In this scenario, USA could even see the importance of have such weapons and (even later than IRL) develop this quickly than UK , since UK is recovering from war losses and dealing with colonial independence movements and also internal dissents... while USA industry got untouched from the Pacific war and the awareness of a new upcoming war lead them in the way of develop these new weapon branch.
:)
 

bean1

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IMO the point is that all the nuclear program of everybody that IRL achieved nukes in the later 40's and early 50's would be delayed because of the different outcoming of the WW2.
In this scenario, USA could even see the importance of have such weapons and (even later than IRL) develop this quickly than UK , since UK is recovering from war losses and dealing with colonial independence movements and also internal dissents... while USA industry got untouched from the Pacific war and the awareness of a new upcoming war lead them in the way of develop these new weapon branch.
:)

Historically, the A-Bomb was only invented due to the need to end the war sooner, whether it be used against Germany or Japan.

Also, the Manhattan Project was only started in 1942-the war in the Pacific ended in a stalemate around that same time. The war in Europe would be over in '42 or '43.

This negates not only the use of the A-Bomb for everyone, but sets back research and it's practical use by several years.

Germany, and this is just an idea, should have more advanced variations of the A-Bomb. They should have none in their A-Bomb slot however, but should have advanced rocket technology for the A-Bomb already ready, with reactors built up in Germany.

Historically it wasn't until 1967, according to Wikipedia, that nuclear weapon rocket propulsion systems were first developed. German scientists, if properly financed, could invent a rocket system by 1950 or later(but before '67.)

America should also have some variation of the nuke(maybe more traditional, as in plane-dropped nukes) and should get an event to steal rocket nuke technology from Germany.

I agree that Japan, busy with crushing Chinese rebellions and building and maintaining a large navy/military, shouldn't see a reason to posses nukes at first. If they do decide to build nukes, it will be a slow process.
 

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bean1 read the "black book" or Sonderfahndungsliste G.B (Also read "Informationsheft GB for the Nazi's insights into British society, politics and culture )" as it is officially know as. Search for them in a well known search engine. It contains the people and organisations that the Nazis were going to arrest and kill upon the conquest / Surrender of the UK. It also contains information as to whom is most likely to be put into power. It is not Oswald Mosley!
 

bean1

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It is not Oswald Mosley!

Nor was Edward VIII to be a 'popular figurehead' in the new fascist regime. Historically, he planned to flee to Canada or the Bahamas and oppose German occupation(I read that in a biography once :cool:)

in this AH's case, Britain remained independent following the end of the war. Unless Britain falls under occupation some time during the '50's, it should continue to be led by the Labour Party.
 

Easy1

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Me thinks that this mod should be named: black sun risen :)

I'd also like to say that the grandiose plans of N-Germany were not realistic, even in the case of a complete victory. Sure, a victorious Nazi Germany wouldn't have allowed a communist regime in Europe like in the illustration below, but I think the borders seen is closer to something realistic than a Germany spanning from the Alps to Ural.

Realistic_Style__Nazi_Victory_by_BlamedThande.jpg