Interventionism vs Agrarianism? The latter is almost never better than the first one, right?

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Qing is an experience...
Seems like it, and to be honest, I can't wait to play it, but right now I run the game on speed 5, and while I don't get nearly the same high numbers everyone else does, I've played at least 9 games of Vic 3 to 1870 something and said f it each time, but I'm still on my 3rd committed Vic2 file, with the intention to continue when I'm well rested.

This one....has some patches to go before it does the same (for me), but I do really look forward to playing those two because of the wide and hopefully not Eurocentric experience they should offer. I'm from somewhere in the Balkans, I'd love to see some flavor added to that area down the line.
 
Seems like it, and to be honest, I can't wait to play it, but right now I run the game on speed 5, and while I don't get nearly the same high numbers everyone else does, I've played at least 9 games of Vic 3 to 1870 something and said f it each time, but I'm still on my 3rd committed Vic2 file, with the intention to continue when I'm well rested.

Qing is actually very easy on the management side (once you solve the opium wars problem) because the volumes involved are so high it's kind of difficult to screw anything up really badly and micromanagement is really unnecessary. Remember that if you control + click when building something, you'll build in multiples of 10. Get railroads early, you will need them badly.

Also, you will just never run out of peasants. You will struggle to even make a dent on the endless quantity of peasants. Even late game exponential growth curves cannot save you from them. Never, ever, ever pass any form of social welfare, or you will die. Putting Qing in the recommended "egalitarian society" objective category was one of the meanest things Paradox has ever done.
 
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Thanks for speedily glossing over the four or so words I put in bold at the beginning of my post , it helps not to read carefully when you're trying to point out other people's incorrect blanket conclusions!

Later tech is ALWAYS better, so your own standards: if the tech UI is arranged vertically down by how good it is, and later tech unlocks laws, and the law UI is arranged in the same way as the tech UI, then laws at the bottom are the best, because techs at the bottom are the best, and laws are arranged according to what unlocks them. Basic deductive reasoning, if a bit wordy.

It's just bad UI design boss, which is a universal sentiment to the point the DDs are about it. Economic theory doesn't develop linearly, throughout history, and it's weird to put Free Trade and Command Econ. in descending order, but not all the law screens have this issue.

The insulting part is that you assumed you're the first one to clear the darkness on this topic, despite significantly better answers you didn't bother to read either. That's why I was mean to you.
I read the posts, but they all implied conservative->liberal progression, which is just not the case.

I don't understand what you mean in the second paragraph.

It only seems weird when you view it as linear path towards liberalism (probably makes more sense if you view it as moving towards socialism/communism).

Later laws are not always better, many become more situational. E.g. Graduated Taxation, Militarized Police, Wage Subsidies, Elected Bureuacrats (sometimes), Anarchy, and Command Economy. Most laws have some up/down and aren't always best picks.

I didn't mean to insult, but I feel like you're reading too much into the order, or want there to be some meaning to the order. All I'm trying to say is that it's literally just done that way because it's in the order of the techs.
 
Also, you will just never run out of peasants. You will struggle to even make a dent on the endless quantity of peasants. Even late game exponential growth curves cannot save you from them. Never, ever, ever pass any form of social welfare, or you will die. Putting Qing in the recommended "egalitarian society" objective category was one of the meanest things Paradox has ever done.
I'll just say that in my current Qing run, my GDP is about to crack 6 billion and I've still got tens of millions of peasants.
 
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Qing is actually very easy on the management side (once you solve the opium wars problem) because the volumes involved are so high it's kind of difficult to screw anything up really badly and micromanagement is really unnecessary. Remember that if you control + click when building something, you'll build in multiples of 10. Get railroads early, you will need them badly.

Also, you will just never run out of peasants. You will struggle to even make a dent on the endless quantity of peasants. Even late game exponential growth curves cannot save you from them. Never, ever, ever pass any form of social welfare, or you will die. Putting Qing in the recommended "egalitarian society" objective category was one of the meanest things Paradox has ever done.
While I do agree that Qing is easier due to the ability to produce basically everything at max-economy-of-scale levels, I do disagree with "never running out of peasants". I usually run out of peasants in China between 1890 and 1905 and start to prioritize pleasing the trade unions for that 10%/20% workforce ratio.

Using the market to balance your construction needs also gets harder once you go above 10k construction. I think I accidentally built 500 more powerplants tham I currently needed :p.

I have been running max social welfare for a while (and going world conquest). Currently (1903) I have reached 25 SoL. So it is possible :3.

(Sadly I had to use a mod to correct the overflow bug around 1890, but otherwise playing vanilla).
 
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If you focus primarily on agriculture, have more aristocrats than capitalists, then agrarianism is better than interventionism. But it's a very explicit play style and planning mindset, export oriented in that you best hope someone is gonna buy what you make and that you can import manufactured goods from them in exchange.
 
Agrarianism is better than Interventionism because you can actually reliably switch to it early game as a nation dominated by aristocrats (i.e. 90% of nations) and they both enable Per-Capita taxation which by far the most important thing about economic system laws. You should be building both industry and non-industry and be able to fully exhaust your investment fund whichever law you're on.
 
Agralian Russia, has some advantages:
+You have some cash crops in the south.
+You start with colonialism and giga pop. So you can set up in Kenya or niger delta. Russian Africa is an abomination, but it exist.
+You absolutly can invade Persia or central asia, so Afgan Opium fields are yours.
+Wine wheat is good cash crop. Just need to export it.
+Before pumpjacks secondary farming is ok. Liquor, meat, sugar, fruits. Can get decent amount of it.
+Conquering pieces of Qing is on the table, you dont have far. Also can conquere anything else. Which is different than Belgium.

It is different from Qing, the initial numbers of production are lower. But you can walk similar path.
 
It would be much more interesting if Agrarianism is not just agriculture but resource exploitation at all - so aristocrats with their land rights should also own logging camps, mines and oil rigs at least with Private Own. A bit the todays Katar/V.A.E/Saudi-Arabia-rentier states.


Aristocrats as owner of (land-)resources, Capitalists as owner of factories where the resources are needed. Such a division would at least give Agrariansm a greater niche - even viable for resource-intensive exporters like Russia.
 
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It would be much more interesting if Agrarianism is not just agriculture but resource exploitation at all - so aristocrats with their land rights should also own logging camps, mines and oil rigs at least with Private Own. A bit the todays Katar/V.A.E/Saudi-Arabia-rentier states.

Aristocrats as owner of (land-)resources, Capitalists as owner of factories where the resources are needed. Such a division would at least give Agrariansm a greater niche - even viable for resource-intensive exporters like Russia.

I assumed Agraganarism was based on distributionism, so it is the ruralist economy, not "Functioning landowner economy". (Albeit it begs the question if clergy and farmers get ownership shares, why do they not give dividends to the investment pool?)

The kind of resource driven banana republic/oil shiek economy i would argue is still run by capitalist pops, and would have capitalists owning plantations and mines. (And should get an economy law, yes.)
 
Look, unless you are roleplaying something, Agrarianism is never, ever, ever better. I don't think you are since you asked which is best, but trust me, don't read any further for the explanation, just pick interventionism.

Unless you have to switch from Traditionalism and you forgot to boost ig_industrialists and even then, just boost ig_industrialists and ig_trade_unions then switch as the amount of time is less in the end.
Anybody who tells you otherwise is just "theorizing" or throwing out their idea of how it should work, but it doesn't work that way.
This is a game about the industrial age, not about farming. The only time you build resources or Rural tab buildings is because you can't get a good trade going (war potential, availability, etc.) or because you already have a big boy GDP and construction and you're trying to become self-sustaining (because of war potential or whatever). Forests and Mines are a bit different; you may have to build iron at start, but still follow the same rule, if possible. Trade for it or make just enough that your urban buildings run profitable.

The moment you get the lathe, agrarianism goes right out the window. (Which is at the start of the game) This is true for Qing, try it yourself, build 10 wheat farms in Shandong, use fastenact and research romanticism, pass serfdom abolished with fastenact on. pass agrarianism, run the game a bit and look at investment pool (around 20k) delete all farms your buildings, open back console and research cotton_gin then research lathe, change the respective production methods, change to interventionism, load the 10 wheat farms back up in Shandong, and check your investment pool transfer on budget, (mine is around 23k). Switch back and forth between the two and watch your investment pool rise with Interventionism and fall with agrarianism.
That says nothing about all the other issues with it like, interventionism covers the same things as agrarianism does, plus more (and even better buildings per level than agriculture or ranches/plantations). Aristocrats only get on average less than 1/3 the dividends share of the buildings they get share's in, since clergy and farmers normally take the majority of it.
Every test I do, interventionism is better once you have the lathe. The time it takes to switch laws, and the speed you get lathe, I can never, ever, see a reason it is better unless your argument is that you have to switch from traditionalism. And even then, I would tell you to bolster your industrialists instead since the time it takes to switch from agrarianism to interventionism takes too long, might as well wait to get industrialists up. the only exception here is Qing since industrialists are so low (though i still think my last run as Qing I got them high enough) but go to agrarianism just to get rid of it then go to Laissez Faire as fast as possible. I could see an argument to keep ig_rural (this IG likes agrarianism) around for protectionism law, but the protectionism/mercantilism is a whole other can of worms my brain hurts thinking about, but one I feel is more situational than this current question by OP. Seriously, why did you read this, just trust me I could go on for days as to why it's not good. Those who say, "But what if you build lots of farms?" I would say, don't do that, build urban.
 
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Look, unless you are roleplaying something, Agrarianism is never, ever, ever better.

I disagree

This is a game about the industrial age, not about farming.

The game is about growing you're economy and making money. In particular it's also about "you, the state" making money.

So the thing with farms is that they have 1/3rd of the construction cost of a factory and since a factory often takes the equivalent of a farm or mine to fed it with input early game 1 factory + feeder is about equivalent to 4 farms in construction cost/time. This means that for the same construction cost:
1) the farms employ more people that are going to pay tax, about 20K vs 10K
2) the farms output more units of a good, when tariffs/consumption taxes apply to that good the resulting tarrifs/consumption taxes are higher, considerably higher when it's for example opium
3) the farms at nominal price generate a higher revenue

Further considerations are:
4) you don't need to build any support industry, or can highly minimalise the amount
5) farms use up less infrastructure
6) a almost pure farms oriented build early game can allow for better tech focus
7) you don't have to stay Agrarianism all game, it can be more interesting early game and witch later going into -> 8
8) with mutual funds you can switch ownership of the farms to capitalists

Lets start with point 3 and 5. Typically before the 3rd/last production method of factory's farms output a volume of goods that at their base price generate more revenue for the amount of construction points invested than building factory's and it's supporting industry does. It's fairly significant, about 30 to 50% more revenue depending on the case. So building farms all prices being nominal will result in faster gdp growth, and before railways you can stack more revenue generation in a province with it's limited infrastructure than with factory's or alternatively farms will tend to require less infrastructure investment going further. You can check it for every factory/mine, i have done so myself, only things like sulpher, gold and oil tend to generate more revenue per construction point invested at nominal prices than farms. Not all farms/plantations being equal opium certainly stands out as generating a lot of revenue after upgraded to automated irrigation.

Note: i'm saying nominal price, however the above is even a stronger consideration when certain farm goods can be sold at very high prices, which is true for some under some circumstances from the early game on notably a number of high pop opium producing country's in Asia but plenty of others aswell.

About point 1 and 2. Lets consider how much the state is making specifically for each construction point invested. There are several ways to make money from what you build, this can be:
A) money made from taxes, as people work there earn money and pay taxes
B) money made from consumption tax ,if you expand production of a good that can fill more demand and you levy consumption tax on it then producing more units will yield more consumption tax of the bat
C) Money made from tariffs: if you expand production of a good you export so to increase the trade volume and you collect tariffs on the trade you will earn more tariff income from expanding it
D) the investment pool: If you're expanding relevant production the investment pool will add funds for it

Now the thing with all these points is that "you can have it all", but that point can also motivate you early on to build farms and nothing practically nothing but farms. Some country's just start out with big potential trade partners nearby that have a big demand for certain agricultural goods where you are better positioned to fill that demand. So if i'm for example Spain and i start out by building large tobacco and coffee plantations for the french market it will allow me to increase tax income faster, i will also get rising consumption taxes on those goods for each farm build and increasing tariff income for these goods for each unit sold across the border and my farms will produce larger amounts early on than factory's could of comparable goods.

But what regards for D, the point could be made that you could still do all this in interventionism. Well, if you're going to build farms pretty much exclusively for the first 2 decades or so then you're really quickly adding to the aristocrats investment pool and drawing from it, and because the farms generate more revenue per construction cost what the aristocrats collect is pretty large however the effect is stronger when a country can sell a lot of it's agricultural produce at high prices.

For what regard point 7 and 8, at some point you will want to build factory's and the notable reason why factory's are truly interesting versus farms is because at higher production methods they can yield more productivity per worker than farms, the caveat being that factory's arguably only really become interesting once a country has already employed almost all its former subsistence peasants. At this stage it would be interesting to change part ownership of farms to capitalists and to go laissez-faire, as well the farms only give part of the profit to capitalists by virtue of it being a sector generating a lot of revenue early on its contribution to the capitalist investment pool would be significant too.

Lastly point 4 and 6. There are points where such a strategy can be further bolstered by more narrow tech aims and more narrowed down construction requirements. In the early game of a pretty pure agriculture focus you would want to avoid building any factory's when can and when expanding farms/plantations remain a more profitable option. Purely wood based construction sectors can be a good thing in this strategy for not forcing you to put time in iron and coal mines before the follow up to atmospheric engines is unlocked, especially if you can import a lot of cheap wood from Russia or China it can be pretty good. Like as Vietnam for example my early construction is all opium/coffee plantations and construction sectors without putting effort in wood or iron/coal production as i can build a lot of opium plantations in the time i would need to build those and those opium plantations allow me to very quickly afford me more construction sectors. Improved agriculture might become an early tech focus but more important first is railroads and the supporting tools, iron, coal, steel and engines to support railways which is a relative small deviation of further producing farms early on. After that you will want to get good tech for your iron and coal mines and improve the construction sector. A few more techs are useful on the way but pump jacks become a important goal for tech rush. I usually also use the fast accumulation of early revenue in this strat to build a bunch of university's as it's useful for country's for which this style fits so tech focus becomes cheaper to do too. By the time i hit pump jacks i suddenly have to build a lot of engine factory's but the rewards are great too as the relative sudden switch of a highly agrarian economy to it is very significant to GDP. And yet all before this time i havn't build a single consumer factory yet, no clothes, furniture, no luxury goods and preferably i'm rather importing glass and paper at this point than having my own factory's.

It's also because it also fits some country's like a glove for their difficulty's early on. a lot of these population rich country's for which this strat works well have a big tax collection deficit early game which forces the consideration on wether you should start with building goverment administration buildings, however the return of doing so is higher once that country does not suffer any malus from traditionalism or hereditary bureaucrats while things like tariffs income is afaik not impacted by lower tax collection ability so that farming can generate more state income faster than building time consuming government administrations.
 
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While I do agree that Qing is easier due to the ability to produce basically everything at max-economy-of-scale levels, I do disagree with "never running out of peasants". I usually run out of peasants in China between 1890 and 1905 and start to prioritize pleasing the trade unions for that 10%/20% workforce ratio.

I was reaching a point in my Qing no-offensive wars game where I was starting to run out of peasants. I wasn't there yet, but mainly because I had slowed down clearing subsistence farms. The problem I faced was that there simply wasn't enough wood in the universe to run my economy. So, at a certain point, clearing subsistence farms (with their "free" wood and furniture) was hurting the rest of the economy.

That doesn't even help with issues like running out of coal, lead, and iron. Which caused me to retool half the economy to be more efficient with these resources at the cost of other problems.

I bet if I had no medical institutions and no reduction in mortality for work I could have removed all peasants without creating a big chunk of permanently unemployed.