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Cagliostro

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I think that maybe it could be modeled by just making overseas invention fairly difficult. After all, the amount that Britain and France could have contributed was fairly small, except in terms of naval blockades - which might still well have won the war for the Confederacy, but wouldn't have led to Britain and France seizing territory. Equally, as I understand it the Europeans were wary of allying with the CSA because of their slavery policy - that could be modeled with reputation hits if they did in fact back the CSA, and possibly damaging their march toward freedom and industrial progress.
 

swilhelm73

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Something to keep in mind - if the game starts in 1820, the world situation could be very different in 1860 in game then IRL.

Perhaps FRA and GBR are at odds, and the former supports the US/Union in return for at least putting serious pressure on Canada, to use up British resources. the natural British response would be to support the Confeds...

I strongly agree that their should be balanced risks and rewards for possible intervention in the US, or heck Germany and Italy in their attempts at unification.

Now, the system should, if it words correctally, make the historical choice generally the better choice for the situation as it was. In general this should be a guiding aspect of the game. The players can deviate from historical choices all they wish - but pay the price for making what are generally less valuable choices.

It seems to me that the advantage of foresight is much less in VIC then in say HOI. Trying to take down the US via the civil war isn't any more obvious to us as a strategy then it was to the leaders of GBR and FRA at the time. Nor would be stopping German Unification for FRA. Or Italian Unification for HAB...
 

unmerged(1973)

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Mar 18, 2001
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Originally posted by swilhelm73
Something to keep in mind - if the game starts in 1820, the world situation could be very different in 1860 in game then IRL.


The game starts in 1835, but your point is still valid...
 

Crazy_Ivan80

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Maybe not the same as full out intervention (which I think should be an option) but the Civil war should give certain European nations the opportunity, depending on their actions/alignment/allegiances to try and undermine, if not totally wipe out, the Monroe Doctrine.

This opportunity should get bigger as the war drags on imho
 

unmerged(1973)

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Mar 18, 2001
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
Maybe not the same as full out intervention (which I think should be an option) but the Civil war should give certain European nations the opportunity, depending on their actions/alignment/allegiances to try and undermine, if not totally wipe out, the Monroe Doctrine.

This opportunity should get bigger as the war drags on imho

Well, the French DID disregard the Monroe doctrine when they intervened in Mexico (with naval support by UK and Spain). The Monroe doctrine was only valid as long as the US chose to enforce it.

In the game, the Monroe doctrine should give the US a casus belli on all european states who tries to expand their colonial empire in the americas. However the European powers should be able to have economic interest and influence-areas in the americas.

Hope Paradox checks out the old boardgame Pax Britannica who had pretty good rules concerning casus belli...
 

stnylan

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What is clear from this discussion though is that there needs also to be an option for European Powers to recognise the Confederacy, rather than intervene, with necessary consequences as well. Also, if they do this, possibly send some 'support', military supplies etc.
 

jacob-Lundgren

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well as long as there are other coutnries that join in to balance it, say france and england intervene in suuport of the CSA. well prussia knows she has to fight france one day(and wanrs to do it), russia wants revenge for crimea+other things, and when the russian high sees fleet pulls into new york harbor and the prussians and russians dipomates see an opportunity.... can we say early ww1? possibly an italy joining in against france/GB to nab colonies.
just saying if worked wisely, no european will recognize CSA cuz they would have any enemies in europe jump on them by supporting the north, so they could have a reason for war and you should cause this snowball effect leading to a generaly european war.
 

unmerged(3360)

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If there wouldn´t be a chance of a turtledovian scenario in the acw the game would be hardly interesting for me.
This is one of the points I´m really longing for in a game in this time period.
 

unmerged(14689)

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Originally posted by Duuk
Anyone allying with the revolter or DoW'ing the original nation MUST be of a like mind with the revolter. --
This means that GBR cannot take the side of the CSA, as Slavery and aristocratic despotism were heavily negative things in the UK of the time. Had the UK openly supported a slave state, the unrest levels in London would have been tremendous.

This means that Russia could, without any rise in dissent at home, take the side of the CSA. It was an aristocratic state and most Russians were serfs. Besides, in Britain the populace might react in a negative way on intervention, I don't think the Russians would have cared less (unless the war would have gone bad).

Since a Russian player might have gained a strong foothold in America by the time ACW starts, he might be of great importance for the outcome of the war.
 

unmerged(1973)

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Re: Re: Intervention in the US Civil War

Originally posted by Suvorov
This means that Russia could, without any rise in dissent at home, take the side of the CSA. It was an aristocratic state and most Russians were serfs.


Russia freed the serfs in early 1861. Off course they don't have to do that in the game...
 

aprof

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About the South's "Cotton Diplomacy"...

Isn't it true that those Lancashire mill owners were able to rebound both from the Confederacy's threat to withhold its cotton and the North's blockade to cut off the South's cotton by simply getting a new source of supply -- Egyptian cotton, which was having a banner year.

The "power" of "King Cotton" upon the European nations was not what the South wanted it to be.

Neither England nor France had any serious reason to support the South nor to intervene on its behalf.
 
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On European intervention in US Civil War.

The most likely to intervene were of course Britain and France. Both (especially Britain) had a need for southern cotton, though Britain was able to develop other sources during the war in Egypt and India. One problem for the South was that prior to the war there had been huge surpluses of cotton production--at the very time when European intervention was most likely (early war) the European warehouses were still stuffed full with old cotton. Only during later war did supplies begin to be affected, but by then it was too late. Next point is that both Britain and France wished to see a balance of power situation in the Western hemisphere--the independent South could help to balance the North and to help restrain its aggressive, expansionist tendencies. France also wanted to set up Mexico as its own puppet colony, and this venture received support of the South. This puppet Mexico could only continue to exist after the war if the South had won--a Northern victory would mean an aggressive US dismantling of the puppet regime in Mexico (which is exactly what happened historically). Plus, having the South independent would weaken the North in its commercial competition with Europe, also to the advantage of Britain and France. Finally, they wanted to rub the face of the US into the mud over the arrogant "Monroe Doctrine" in which the weakling US had granted itself exclusive control of the Western hemisphere against all Europeans--ironically the only reason that the Monroe Doctrine had seemed to work was because Britain chose for its own purposes to enforce the ban on European infiltration with its own naval forces--thus, the Monroe Doctrine of the US was enforce by the British Royal Navy. Anyway, it would have been fun to humiliate those cocky Americans by permanently splitting their country.

All of this just shows that Britain and France wanted the South to win. The key thing, though, is that they did not want to become involved too much in the war unless it became clear that the South could "win". Nonintervention was for them wiser than intervention on the losing side. A Southern victory does not mean full occupation of the North but exhaustion of the North until it accepted peace with the South--a Vietnam-type victory, if you will. However, although the South came close to "beating" the North (that is, hurting it enough to make it stop trying to reunify the country) in the early stages of the war, they never came quite close enough. Antietam is often listed as the great turning point in the diplomatic-military calculations. Anyway, so it was a big "Catch-22": South could only win a decisive military victory with European support, but that support would only be forthcoming after such a decisive military victory.

France (Napoleon 3) often wanted to intervene, but chose always to place itself at the service and disposal of Britain ("we will intervene, but only if Britain chooses to do so."). Thus, Britain became the key decision-maker in terms of intervention. But they never quite overcame their hesitations--nobody wants to bet on a horse unless it is going to be the winner.

Intervention could have taken many ways. There was simple recognition of the South, which Northern threats and bluster seem to have prevented. Another possibility is the offer to mediate--if rejected by the North, then this would have probably been followed by full declaration of war. Key aspects of interventionist power would have probably been naval. Commitment of British and French naval power would have broken the Northern blockade and allowed the South to get needed arms and supplies. Europeans had learned the secrets of the ironclad not from the US Civil War (as American textbooks often argue--"look at how the whole world learns from glorious America!" BS.) but from the Crimean War. They would have loved to crush North in naval battles. But again, the risks were just too great. Intervention by land troops could have been possible, for example, British troops from Canada, but mostly the naval aspect would be the decisive military contribution from Europe had intervention occurred.

Side note: the great power supporting the North the very most was Tsarist Russia. In return for this support, the US allowed the Russian naval forces to seek refuge in San Francisco and New York when war threatened later between Russia and Europe concerning crises in Eastern Europe, Poland, etc. Ironic, because it would have been a lot better for Russia later if the US had been split up into two parts and thus weakened. In the end, the North's ability to unify their country allowed them to expand aggressively and militaristically to conquer much of the world. How stupid Gorbachev is to have done exactly the opposite, by the way! Instead of keeping our country unified and marching to greatness, that dirty bastard divided us (temporarily) into little pieces. Our current defeats arise precisely from this division. Unity brings strength, and strength brings victory. The North knew this very well, so let's have a toast to the American North.
 

unmerged(14689)

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Molodec! :D

Not quite agree with the last part, but it's always nice to hear a Russian talk about a subject we only know from an American perspective. Russia supporting the North? Glad a Russian player in V knows what'll come next, so he can support the CSA.

Zhdyom vosstanovlenija Soyuza! :) ;)
 

Tim O

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Originally posted by Suvorov
Molodec! :D

Not quite agree with the last part, but it's always nice to hear a Russian talk about a subject we only know from an American perspective. Russia supporting the North? Glad a Russian player in V knows what'll come next, so he can support the CSA.

Zhdyom vosstanovlenija Soyuza! :) ;)

It would be smarter to support her and become an ally. When she goes to war with Spain you can grab the Phillipines. And when a Great War breaks out in Europe you will have a strong America on your side.
 

unmerged(15764)

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what about supporting both sides and let them destroy each other completely then when the USA is weak go in for the kill!

:eek: im oof to bed I have exams tomorro =(
 

jacob-Lundgren

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considering the only country that could benefit land wise by a US defeat is the CSA... i dont think people will get into a kick-them-when-they-are-down motife. any land taken would have to be guarded by repetive US attempts to take it back, the us still has a large population, people will still immigrat to it, probably over the CSA giving it still a large population. and it would not have to spend any resources rebuilding the south, so if the game is fairly well made i dont think people will get much out of the US. nationalism would be there and again any good MP game will have countries jump into the USA side so they can fight the other countries and hope the US wins, which gives them a HUGE bonus in a later gratful ally for life.:) :D :p
 
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On gameplay and European intervention. I strongly suggest that the game be structured in such a way that a European human player will probably NOT intervene in the US Civil War, just as the case was historically. And the reason for the probable nonintervention should be realistic. In other words, the human European should be AFRAID to intervene in the game. And this fear in the game must be realistically modeled. I do not think that it is enough to say "no intervention because unrest would increase and lead to the overthrow of British gov't". No, that is just unrealistic. If Britain had intervened, would the British masses overthrow their government? Well, of course not. Hopefully the game would not resort to such an unrealistic device. (I am reminded here of the Soviet consumer goods demand barrier to early Soviet intervention in HOI--what a load of crap that idea was!)

So what exactly kept the British out? The costs of intervention, the risks of actually fighting the North? I don't know exactly, and we can discuss this a lot, but I do not think that "revolt risk in Britain" is the realistic answer.

Remember that rule number one must always be realism.
 

unmerged(9563)

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Mmm. Cotton. Withhold it, and make the other countries more dependent on India and Egypt. :D

European intervention would have consequences. Sure, France can help the CSA. WWI rolls around and the (remaining) North and Mexico have a heyday.

And people have to remember, why would an American player want to conquer Alaska from Russia. If it is heavily Russified, then it would probably be worth too little for the cost of the stab (or whatever they're using) and nationalism. That being said, it should be worth presteige... and a shouldn't be a very smart option to Russia for anthing more than pissing off the USA, because no one knew how much it would be worth untill the modern-day equipment they can use now.