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Duuk

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People are already saying that intervention in the US Civil War is going to be a given in MP VIC.

We need a way to flatten that idea quickly. I'm thinking that a "Revolter" should be flagged as such during the initial war against their nation. This would have the following effects:

Can be re-annexed to the original nation without penalty to relations with foreigners. (EU2: No annexation relations hit, no BB)

Anyone allying with the revolter or DoW'ing the original nation MUST be of a like mind with the revolter. --
This means that GBR cannot take the side of the CSA, as Slavery and aristocratic despotism were heavily negative things in the UK of the time. Had the UK openly supported a slave state, the unrest levels in London would have been tremendous.

Any other ideas that would be EASY TO CODE that can prevent too much intervention in Civil Wars?
 

IEX Totalview

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Originally posted by Duuk
People are already saying that intervention in the US Civil War is going to be a given in MP VIC.

We need a way to flatten that idea quickly. I'm thinking that a "Revolter" should be flagged as such during the initial war against their nation. This would have the following effects:

Can be re-annexed to the original nation without penalty to relations with foreigners. (EU2: No annexation relations hit, no BB)

Anyone allying with the revolter or DoW'ing the original nation MUST be of a like mind with the revolter. --
This means that GBR cannot take the side of the CSA, as Slavery and aristocratic despotism were heavily negative things in the UK of the time. Had the UK openly supported a slave state, the unrest levels in London would have been tremendous.

Any other ideas that would be EASY TO CODE that can prevent too much intervention in Civil Wars?

There are people who know more about this than I, but it is my understanding the British upper classes were quite aristocratic and sympathetic to the Confederacy. Napoleon III of France also saw it as an excellent opportunity to weaken the U.S., expand French influence in Mexico and gain general prestige. Both countries were quite close to joining the South had she been victorious at Antietam. There was also an incident involving two Confederate envoys that almost brought Britain into the war.

And it's not like Britain would have declared war on the United States and dispatch armies to pillage the country. More likely she would have simply recognized the Confederacy as an independent nation, an act which would likely have brought a DOW from the United States.

True the British middle and lower classes were anti-slavery but, until after Antietam, both the North and the South swore the war was not about slavery. So I think if the British or French intervene before the Emancipation Proclamation, then it should be not so pianful, but, as the war drags on and freedom for slaves seems assured with Northern victory, intervention should become more costly in domestic stability.
 

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Originally posted by Duuk
This means that GBR cannot take the side of the CSA, as Slavery and aristocratic despotism were heavily negative things in the UK of the time. Had the UK openly supported a slave state, the unrest levels in London would have been tremendous.

Any other ideas that would be EASY TO CODE that can prevent too much intervention in Civil Wars?

I'm not sure about this. While there certainly was support in the UK for the North (mainly among economic and moral liberals like John Bright), there was also significant support for the South. Britain was still essentially run by aristocrats, and I doubt that many would have shed a tear if the great American experiment in democracy failed.

That being said, what I would suggest is that there needs to be some sort of "trigger" to allow such intervention. For example, I doubt the Brits would have intervened unless there was a specific reason, such as if the Trent Affaira had been more of a mess. I'm not sure how that could be modeled, though.

EDIT: I just saw IEX Totalview's post. What he said. ;)
 
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I don't know if it could really be modeled by revolt risk. In Britain, I don't think there would have been outright revolution in the streets if she joined the CSA - or the USA for that matter. It may well have caused a change in government, though, and I think that for that reason Britain didn't go waving her century-old CB shield over the Manhattan CoT in Lincoln's face.
 

Duuk

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Sadly though, all evidence beyond "There was support, really!" tends to list that both France and the UK saw that the North was likely going to win, and that the South could offer no real _advantages_.

Countries don't have friends, only interests. And having FRA or GBR enter the war on either side would be squarely against their own interests. It was bound to be unpopular with one class or another, it would tie up massive resources, and victory was not assured until intervention became pointless.

I would _strongly_ urge Paradox to review any historical websites or books about intervention in the ACW instead of trusting the "It's well known" stuff.

At no point was GBR even close to entering the war, and France did only one thing: The sent a royal cousin to Mexico and didn't send him enough forces to hold his claim.

* * *

I've spent the last few minutes Googling for sources and cites.

Wouldn't you know how tedious this is? Mostly book reviews of people agreeing with me, but none with excerpts on their pages. Bastards actually want me to buy their book! Preposterous!
 

IEX Totalview

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I found a source that belives intervention possible:

An excerpt:

During the autumn of 1862 Great Britain seriously considered intervening in the American Civil War. In September General Lee's troops invaded Maryland after Stonewall Jackson repelled the Union army at the second battle of Bull Run. While the Europeans did not believe the South had the ability to conquer the North, French Foreign Minister Thouvenel observed that no leader on the continent thought that the Union could win. A stalemate had been reached. Russell and Palmerston now believed the time to act was almost at hand. Public opinion leaned towards action of some sort. The Morning Herald pleaded "Let us do something ... arbitration, intervention, diplomatic action, recognition ... let us do something to stop this carnage." Secretly the British Cabinet was discussing some form of urgent intervention. On September 13 Russell ordered Lord Cowley, ambassador to France, to sound out informally Édouard Thouvenel, the French foreign minister, regarding a joint recommendation of armistice accompanied by a threat that the Confederacy "might" be recognized. There were clear ideas about how the conflict could be settled. On September 14 Palmerston wrote Russell that "The federals ... got a very complete thrashing". "Would it not be time for us to consider," he asked, "[to] address the contending parties and recommend an arrangement upon the basis of separation?" Russell agreed and suggested "One Republic to be constituted on the principle of freedom and personal liberty - the other on the principle of slavery and the mutual surrender of fugitives."

Source. From Google.

I agree there are those who feel that British intervention could never happen (and am sure someone will have a source that claims it), but it is a debatable question. Since it is a debatable question, I think it would be foolish to exclude the option .
 
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Johnny Canuck

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Originally posted by Duuk
Sadly though, all evidence beyond "There was support, really!" tends to list that both France and the UK saw that the North was likely going to win, and that the South could offer no real _advantages_.

Countries don't have friends, only interests. And having FRA or GBR enter the war on either side would be squarely against their own interests. It was bound to be unpopular with one class or another, it would tie up massive resources, and victory was not assured until intervention became pointless.

Ah, but there was support, really! ;) On the one hand, the UK clearly had an interest in Southern cotton, as the Lancashire cotton mills suffered a severe depression in the early years of the war, directly attributable to the evaporation of the supply of raw cotton from the Southern states. That this depression did not lead to intervention does not mean that it could never have.

Beyond that, there was support amongst the British government for at least some recognition of the Confederacy. William Gladstone once commented publicly that "the South have made an army; they are making, it appears, a navy; and they have made what is more than either, they have made a nation." Gladstone also viewed Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation as nothing more than a cheap trick and as an act of hopelessness and recklessness, certainly not the sort of thing that changed the moral character of the war. Both Gladstone and Lord Russell were in favour of European mediation (which meant a de facto recognition of the Confederacy) even after Antietam, and Lord Palmerston, the Prime Minister, commented that with one more decisive Southern victory, the time would have come to approach the French and the Russians & offer mediation.

In other words, it was hardly clear that the North was going to win, there was support for the South, and there did not even need to be a change of government for the British to intervene - Gladstone was Chancellor of the Exchequer and heir apparent to Palmerston, after all.

EDIT: Damnit, IEX Totalview beat me to it again! ;)
 

Duuk

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Wow. You both quoted off the same page from the 1st page of Google.

The same "2 diplomats from the south" that are referred to on that page are referred to by the American Civil War Round Table (UK) as "something out of Gilbert and Sullivan".

Also, those same cotton workers in Lancashire that were suffering so badly were decidedly _PRO_ Union, and against the Civil War.

I AGREE, however, that it should be an OPTION for Europe to invade. And in addition, GBR and FRA may have actually gotten close to thinking about it. As a matter of fact, the issue was debated very highly in the British Gov't. But it was always tabled as a "wait and see", and the "wait and see" led to Gettysburg and the Emancipation Proclamation, which made it politically impossible that GBR would ever intervene.

What I'm scared of is that the ACW will be a crippling series of events (which they should be!) that each and every MP game will result in intervention to destroy the American player.

In effect, I don't want another Ottomans and Russia from EU2 in VIC. I want the intervention rate to be not more than 1/20 ;)

In other words, there needs to be TREMENDOUS backlash and issues for Europeans to intervene. That will keep the players from doing something hideously ahistorical unless the odds of success are overwhelming.

Duuk
 
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I wouldn't say that the American Civil War came _close_ to a Confederate victory. Short of a march on Washington, I don't believe that the Confederates could have just worn the Union away, not without a helluva lot more blood and perhaps two years time. IMHO.

The way the Union generals trained - and they drilled and drilled and drilled, if there's something they were good at, it was preparing for someting that kept getting put off - I think that if they were ever put on the defensive for a long period - perhaps after Antietam, for instance - that they would have put a good show. Even with incredibly bad luck - perhaps three defeats a la Antietam or Manassas - the army would kick them off. I think it's even possible that with the loss of Washington that Lincoln would keep on fighting.

And, for the above, I think that the Europeans were aware of Northern industrial and manpower superiority - if they were a bit...ahem...lacking in brilliant tacticians - and that the Europeans would have needed more than a few Manassas'es to jump in on the CSA's side.

However, the EU tradition is not about historical replays, it is about historical tendencies, and it would be horribly incomplete if European intervention was an all-out impossibility. It deserves recognition and I do absolutely look forward to seeing a Confederacy survive in game, if only to put the Spanish army and a the flagship dreadaught in Mobile Bay.

*decides to change his flag now, come to think of it...*

(EDIT) Duuk said everything I wanted to with less polemic. :D
 

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Originally posted by Duuk
Wow. You both quoted off the same page from the 1st page of Google.

The same "2 diplomats from the south" that are referred to on that page are referred to by the American Civil War Round Table (UK) as "something out of Gilbert and Sullivan".

Also, those same cotton workers in Lancashire that were suffering so badly were decidedly _PRO_ Union, and against the Civil War.

Ok, your guy disagrees with my guy. That proves nothing, and seems to further confirm we don't really know if it was possible. But to say all historians believe the idea impossible is ludacris.

I AGREE, however, that it should be an OPTION for Europe to invade. And in addition, GBR and FRA may have actually gotten close to thinking about it. As a matter of fact, the issue was debated very highly in the British Gov't. But it was always tabled as a "wait and see", and the "wait and see" led to Gettysburg and the Emancipation Proclamation, which made it politically impossible that GBR would ever intervene.


Just because they did not act doesn't mean they could not act. A different personality here, a southern victory there, and suddenly there is a situation where Britain intervenes. To selectivly say just because something didn't happen then it couldn't happen is highly questionable IMO.

What I'm scared of is that the ACW will be a crippling series of events (which they should be!) that each and every MP game will result in intervention to destroy the American player.

In effect, I don't want another Ottomans and Russia from EU2 in VIC. I want the intervention rate to be not more than 1/20 ;)

In other words, there needs to be TREMENDOUS backlash and issues for Europeans to intervene. That will keep the players from doing something hideously ahistorical unless the odds of success are overwhelming.

Duuk

Well hopefully we can depend on historical factors to prevent the British for acting ahistorically. For example the British player may not intervene because:

1) It would cause moderate division at home
2) A less powerful U.S. is not in her long-term interest
3) The costs of defending Canada are too high
4) It would allow an opening in Europe for someone to cause trouble

Etc. That is fine. What you seem to be proposing is some ahistorical penalties to prevent players from acting in their best interest. That I disagree with.
 

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From what I originally understood from Duuk's post was that this would be MP specific, in other words that the people running France and Britain wouldn't necessarily have the same thoughts as their historical predecessors. I definitely see this as a probablye occurence, as players in 2003 we have the hindsight that the U.S. after the Civil War would become the predomiant industrial power by the end of the 19th century. How better to stop the juggernaut by heavily aiding an agrarian South seceed and possibly stall western expansion? I think any forward looking Britain or French player would seriously consider supporting the Rebs to give the U.S. a harder time in re-uniting (or maybe not) the U.S.

If the Confederates are victorious (whether played by a human or not in MP) in the first phase of the Civil War in MP, with every year that goes by it is less likely that the U.S. will ever re-unite the country. As more time passes the Confederacy will conciously or subconciously become recognized by European players, and its removal would be seen as an imbalance of power in the system.

If, for example the Confederacy survives until 1880, and the Union sees an opportunity to strike, British and French players would use the opportunity to teach the U.S. a lesson, effectively neutralizing it for the rest of the game. However, on the same note, British and French intervention would take them away from possible assets in the ROTW, which would probably pull at their attention and evenutally get them to abandon the Confederacy.

Thinking about it some more some probable scenarios come to mind:

1860-Ai Confederacy forms in a game of human US, British, French, and Prussian players.

1. French and British support Confed
2. Only British or only French support Confed
3. British or French support Confed, British or French support Union
4. Nobody supports Confed

In 1 and 2 Confed has a good chance of survival, 3 depends on players, and 4 is an almost definite Union victory.

1. Over time Confed comes to peace with Union. British and French look towards colonization, but are drawn back into the Americas in, say, 1880, when Union declares war. Both nations can support Confed again, resulting in similar experience as above, or one nation could drop out, and concentrate on colonial game. One nation's removal would probably precipate another's removal, as they would see their chances at colonization decrease if they concentrated on Civil War.

2. The nation that supports Confed gradually falls behind in the colonial game and is eventually at a power deficit in Europe. This also probably results in an abandonment of Confed.

3. Second round the supporter of Union will probably drop out, as the Union couldn't overrun Confed first time, and concentrate on colonies. Second nation is faced with dilemma in 1 and 2, and will probably drop out.

4. If by some chance the Union can't win against a sole Confed the first time, it is unlikely that European players will care the second time around. The power in Washington is obviously not a threat to anyone.

Of course Prussia throws another kink in the works, being a future colonial power. If both Britain and France are embroiled in American conflict Prussia (and the Dutch and Belgians also), can grab open areas in the ROTW. Prussia may also support the industrial North (as they are simlar in economy), or possibly the South (depending on the player), in order to bog down an enemy France or Britain.

This situation will probably result in many an interesting AAR, witrh possible rammifications for the power structure in Old Europe and the colonizing game. Not only France and Britain, but almost all of the colonial nations could have a hand in the outcome of the American Civil War in MP. A smart Union playey will try to get Europe to ignore America, while a smart Confederate player will try his hardest to get Europe to intervene. Just my thoughts.
 

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In that situtation, I agree with European intervention being allowed.

Let me reiterate: I would like to see something giving a "reward" to the Europeans for acting historically and remaining neutral.

My fear is that intervening in the ACW will be a "standard" tactic that occurs in each and every game.

I have no problem with allowing the Europeans to intervene. It is (slightly) possible that they may have historically.

I don't want it to be a GIVEN, like Poland diplo-annexing Brandenburg, Sweden breaking apart the Kalmar Union 100 years too early, Venice surviving without every losing an island, etc.
 
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Originally posted by Alyosha
2. The nation that supports Confed gradually falls behind in the colonial game and is eventually at a power deficit in Europe. This also probably results in an abandonment of Confed.

See...I'm not so sure about this one. If the Union loses, the nation that dictated terms to Washington is likely to say something like 'Give me your industry,' or in some other way make the US a client state. Victoria is likely - and I should say must have - an option like that for victory, a la puppet state in HOI, although purely economic.

That's what I'd do if I were France or...well, of course, Spain. (There will be Spanish dreadnaughts bombarding New York, this I promise you. And London. :D )

In this case, Spain gets to take full advantage - or at least, much of the advantage - from American raw materials, and can use the balance of power between the Confed and the Union to kind of keep things straight and keep the client situation there. Assuming that the AI's smart enough to be taken advantage of like that. Thus, since Spain gets to be the US's workshop, I don't think they are going to fall behind. On the contrary - even if I'm just playing middleman for American coal, iron, and grain, then I'm profiteering. If I've gone and stolen America's workshop, then I've done even better.
 

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
Whoops, sorry. You make great points though.

No problem - You made good points too! ;)

Originally posted by Duuk
Wow. You both quoted off the same page from the 1st page of Google.

Actually, I pulled out my copy of the first volume of Richard Shannon's biography of William Gladstone, but I suppose that is neither here nor there.

BTW, I do agree that European intervention should not be a "given," but I would object to any sort of artificial limit on their ability to do so. The best system would be one that includes historical risks & rewards to such intervention, & the player has to juggle them. For example, would intervention be worth it even at the risk of the US annexing Canada (it would not have taken much for the US to accomplish this even during the Civil War). In other words, I agree with IEX Totalview's list of historical factors that might prevent a European intervention. Those need to be modelled accurately, & that should be the only limit on European intervention (they were enough to prevent it historically, so if modelled correctly, they should prevent it more times than not).
 

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Second Lieutenant
Sep 1, 2002
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I think it can be pretty self balancing.

Let's say Spain wants a divided U.S. to prevent the Spanish American war. What'll they do if France or Britain join the Union side and start snapping up the colonies Spain went to war to protect?

Most of the powers that could intervene have such wide ranging responsibilities that doing so would leave them open somewhere else.

Of course that doesn't stop less overt intervention by giving the Confederacy technology and money, perhaps giving them ships like the British did, etc.

If you can research tactics like in HoI what about teaching the CSA trench warfare earlier? It was starting at the end of the war.

The Maxim machine gun was invented shortly after the war, and it might be possible to speed it up and hand them out.
 

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First Lieutenant
Mar 23, 2002
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deterministic vs free form

I think this sort of question gets to the heart of a main issue with this sort of game - is history "rigid"? (IE does everything tend to play out like it did historically)

I am firmly in favor of a much more flexible system - the political system needs to have sufficient checks and balances, so that there are consequences and limitations...but I don't want to be locked into a historical course as a player.

I can easily see a more colonial minded france or spain (or several other powers for that matter) deciding to weaken the American grip on the west. It wouldn't even necessarily take a DoW, just political and economic support for the Confederacy. A great deal depends on what else is happening - historically there was a great deal of unrest/tension in Germany/Italy which prevented the major European powers from meddling too seriously in the US civil war - but it could have been different.
 

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Lt. General
Mar 18, 2001
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Originally posted by Duuk

I've spent the last few minutes Googling for sources and cites.

Wouldn't you know how tedious this is? Mostly book reviews of people agreeing with me, but none with excerpts on their pages. Bastards actually want me to buy their book! Preposterous!


There is a very good book called "One war at the time" on this subject. Can't remember the name of the author but he does agree with you...