Interrelationship between trade and production

[Gran'pa]

@podcat (or any member of the developpement team)

Source: WWW, part 2.

Picture 1: In may 1937, the German player has begun to produce the Großtraktor. Before that, the balance of the chromium for Germany was 0. After starting production balance went to -12. Assuming the balance is given “per day” and since the Germany produces only 2.09 Großtraktor per month, I would like to know how the resource requirements are calculated.

Picture 2: the Großtraktor production increased to 3.59 (per month) in September 1937. Nevertheless, the need for chromium remains the same (-12). Normal?

Picture 3 (07-1938): A priori the German player has purchased resources. Production increased to 2.08 großtraktor per week and the need for the production line is now set to 15 (not even 12). How is it possible to spend so much chromium and steel (since 2, 08 * 3 = 6.24)? Is the lack of resources (oil) affects the expenditure of available resources (in this case: chromium and steel)?

Subsidiary questions on the subject:

1. When I buy 4 resources to a country, does it mean 4 resources per day (as in previous versions of HOI) or another scale (week, month...)
2. When I want to produce 1 'object' (tank, gun, boat...) do I need to spent the resources only once, or once per day, per week... From my point of view (as the DD5), it was only once for each manufactured 'object'.

PS : Thanks to the development team for the great work on HOI4. HOI 1 to 3 goes better and I hope that the 4th one would be far more better, realistic (even with abstraction mechanism like the supply, which sounds not so bad for me) and with an improve AI.

 

[Denkt]

Equipment don't cost resources. The resources system that HOI4 use is very similar to the resource system that previous HOI use.

For a factory to be as productive as possible a factory need resources, how many and of which types depend on the equipment it is producing. This amount is fixed so if a factory that is producing Weapon 1 need 2 steel it will need two steel no matter if it produce 1 weapon or 100 weapon per day.

Everything about production is calculated daily so to maximize efficiency you wan't the needed resources available every day, you can not stockpile resources in HOI4.

 

[Ibn_Solmyr]

This amount is fixed so if a factory that is producing Weapon 1 need 2 steel it will need two steel no matter if it produce 1 weapon or 100 weapon per day.

Eh.. What ?
I don't get it.

 

[Fulmen]

Equipment don't cost resources. The resources system that HOI4 use is very similar to the resource system that previous HOI use.

Not really.

There's no visible stockpiles and a production line actually costs resources to run it, and these resource requirements vary based on what you're producing.

Where as in the old HoIs you always needed a certain fixed amount of energy, metal and rares for the upkeep of your factories, while production lines themselves cost nothing but IC & MP. I really don't know where you got the idea that building equipment doesn't cost resources in HoI4, because it does.

 

[Bryartuck]

The amount of resources you need is not based on how many of an equipment is being produced, but on how many factories are producing that equipment. So 1 factory producing infantry equipment will need the same resources whether it produces 1/day or 100/day. You use more resources be putting more factories on the production line. You can produce equipment without the required resources, but it will be at a much slower rate. Over time, your production line will get more efficient, producing more with the same amoun of factories.

 

[Fulmen]

The amount of resources you need is not based on how many of an equipment is being produced, but on how many factories are producing that equipment. So 1 factory producing infantry equipment will need the same resources whether it produces 1/day or 100/day. You use more resources be putting more factories on the production line. You can produce equipment without the required resources, but it will be at a much slower rate. Over time, your production line will get more efficient, producing more with the same amoun of factories.

Aye, but this in effect means that production lines require resources, therefore building equipment requires resources. Assigning more factories to it just means more production lines are being put online, therefore also increasing the resource demand.

Though production lines still functioning without resources doesn't make much sense, and I suppose it's mostly for gameplay reasons rather than realism. Or perhaps it represents a nation being able to slowly scrounge up resources for production by more desperate means and so production isn't completely halted as there's still a tiny amount of resources coming in to the factories.

 

[Denkt]

It is basically the same system as previous HOI, just a little more complex. But the idea that you need resources per factory and not per equipment is the same in all HOI.

 

[chemonaut]

Somewhat related question to anyone watching the world war wednesdays: are the civilian factories gained from trade NOT available to use for construction or consumer goods? Every time I add civilian factory use up they equal the in-country factories, and are short, exactly, the number of civilian factories traded for.

 

[Denkt]

They should be but the game could have had a bug making them unavailable.

 

[Gran'pa]

It is basically the same system as previous HOI, just a little more complex. But the idea that you need resources per factory and not per equipment is the same in all HOI.

Denkt, if I think you're right I have no less than issues:

1. The main, I mentioned in my first post: considering that my production line costing me 15 steel + 15 chromium (per day) for 2.08 großtraktor (per week). This means 50 chromium + 50 steel to produce 1 tank. I do not know where are the development teams to balance the game, but it seems very expensive.
2. The second is a presentation issue: what are the numbers listed on each "object" to produce (tank, boat...) which are visible both in research screens and in relation to the production screens when their production began? And if this is not the unit cost of production of an object then, what is the meaning of these numbers and most important, how could i calculate my expenses (in resources) in order to optimize my production ?

I ask these questions because a good strategy in HOI starts with a good strategy of research and production pre-war, followed of a good estimate of what will be these costs during the war.

 

[Ivan_W_S]

Picture 3 (07-1938): A priori the German player has purchased resources. Production increased to 2.08 großtraktor per week and the need for the production line is now set to 15 (not even 12). How is it possible to spend so much chromium and steel (since 2, 08 * 3 = 6.24)? Is the lack of resources (oil) affects the expenditure of available resources (in this case: chromium and steel)?

The number of resources you need is not dependent on the number of tanks you're producing. It depends on the number of military factories you assign to build said tanks. So, the amount of chromium needed remain constant at 12, it jumped to 15 because he has added another military factory to build Grosstraktor. The lack of any resource means that you're not producing those tanks at an optimum efficiency (I believe Jakob said his factory is only at 33% efficiency because he had not enough resources)

When I buy 4 resources to a country, does it mean 4 resources per day (as in previous versions of HOI) or another scale (week, month...)

It's 4 resource per day.

When I want to produce 1 'object' (tank, gun, boat...) do I need to spent the resources only once, or once per day, per week... From my point of view (as the DD5), it was only once for each manufactured 'object'.

You need to spend resources as long as your production line is active and the amount needed is calculated on a daily basis.

The main, I mentioned in my first post: considering that my production line costing me 15 steel + 15 chromium (per day) for 2.08 großtraktor (per week). This means 50 chromium + 50 steel to produce 1 tank. I do not know where are the development teams to balance the game, but it seems very expensive.

The longer you keep on producing that Grosstraktor, the more efficient the line will be, for the same amount of chromium and steel, you can get up to at least twice, or maybe up to three times the number of tanks you produce in the beginning (depending on industrial technology) In WWW1, Johan with his 15 factories produced 25.66 Weapons I per day. In the end, he produced 57.74 Weapons I per day.

The second is a presentation issue: what are the numbers listed on each "object" to produce (tank, boat...) which are visible both in research screens and in relation to the production screens when their production began? And if this is not the unit cost of production of an object then, what is the meaning of these numbers and most important, how could i calculate my expenses (in resources) in order to optimize my production ?

No clue yet about what those number means. Anyone has any clue?

 

[chemonaut]

The cost was always 15 chrome, 3 per factory and he had 5 factories the whole time. The initial production used 3 chrome from stock, and was 12 in the hole. There is also oil missing, so his production should increase more with oil as well, driving the price per tank down. (maybe a heavy tank is actually 30-35 chrome)

A heavy tank at this time is what, 40 to 50 tonnes, and the chrome takes up about 10% in the armored areas, and in high stress parts. Considering the germans loved engineering we'll say that's a lot of the parts on these heavy tanks that use chrome, so about 3 tonnes. Each 'unit' of chrome here represents like 100 kg of actual metal. The common metal on the other hand, steel, would represent the rest, about nine times that, so almost 1 tonne per 'unit'. Is that expensive? Sure, it's supposed to be. That's why these were produced much slower and at greater cost during the war.

Those numbers are the resources needed for ONE factory to produce the equipment(tanks, artillery, etc.) at highest efficiency.

 

[Gran'pa]

The cost was always 15 chrome, 3 per factory and he had 5 factories the whole time. The initial production used 3 chrome from stock, and was 12 in the hole.

Yes, Chemonaut it seems to be the good answer and it works when I'm looking the others production lines and the requirements for trade (in the WWW Part 1 & 2)

However, these numbers remain huge: at start (28 may, 1937: picture 1) my großtraktor requires 15 steel (per day) for 2,09 tanks (per month). It’s about 215 steel per tank (half the daily German production for steel) . Let’s see how the development team would deal with that…

 

[Kovax]

So, if building heavy armor takes half of Germany's steel production, that doesn't bode well for minor countries trying to produce equipment. Sounds like even a single factory is a rather large unit of production, perhaps not granular enough for smaller countries.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Not really.

There's no visible stockpiles and a production line actually costs resources to run it, and these resource requirements vary based on what you're producing.

Where as in the old HoIs you always needed a certain fixed amount of energy, metal and rares for the upkeep of your factories, while production lines themselves cost nothing but IC & MP. I really don't know where you got the idea that building equipment doesn't cost resources in HoI4, because it does.

Production lines still costed resources in the previous games, just through the IC mechanic and not shown as well in the interface.

If you cancel a production line in HoI2 or HoI3 and the IC becomes un-used, you will need less resources.

 

[Fulmen]

Production lines still costed resources in the previous games, just through the IC mechanic and not shown as well in the interface.

If you cancel a production line in HoI2 or HoI3 and the IC becomes un-used, you will need less resources.

Interesting. In all these years I never knew that.

 

[Bryartuck]

2 energy, 1 metal, and 0.5 rares per IC in previous versions.

 

[chemonaut]

Hah, Gran'pa, this is like fun with numbers. Your tank also includes 100 kg of chrome that materialized from the aether. Either that or its a rust bucket. So you've been checking out the www's and the production there, I've got a question. When the german player purchased chrome, about what factor, would you estimate, did his production increase? I'm guessing it went from about 4 a month to 2 per week. So adding the new resource makes it go twice as fast? IF that's true, in some cases the resource itself, in this case chrome, would cost a civilian factory to acquire, you might as well just let the production line simmer along at a snail's pace. You won't get a lot of units, but it seems the efficiency improves. Then when a newer model on a related chassis becomes available, sell your civilian factories, get a bunch of chrome, and boom, you're in business.

 

[panzerzombie]

I always felt that its a bit ridiculous that resource consumption is tied to factories and not to the actual number of produced pieces of equipment. In my view the main advantage of improved efficiency was mainly TIME and not less material ( apart from a few minor savings and decreased waste ). Thus the same number of factories producing more and more equipment should become increasingly "hungry" for resources and eat more and more each day.

Engineer: Hey I found a way to produce our Panzer IV in 10 days instead of 15 days and now it only weighs 17 tons instead of 26 tons because I only used 66% of the IC/days and 30 units of steel instead of 45.
Tank Crew: Is it still the same tank ?
Engineer: Sure...

 

[Denkt]

The developers have said they are making a game not a simulator. Resource consumption tied to factories have some very nice advantages:

• Reduce or remove the need of micromanagement
• Make efficiency more valuable as it can not be compensated by throwing in more factories.