Interregnum 2: Germania and the early Reformation

[MattyG]

With the recent return of bobtdwarf I'd like to continue discussion on one of the exciting developments for Interregnum 2, which involves the struggle for the HRE, the Wittelsbachs, the formation of Germania and the possible early Reformation.

I don't want to see a repeat of too much of the early discussion, so for those who were not around, read this thread first, especially the second half of it, as it was a thread that evolved somewhat.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318814

So, now you are up-to-date on discussions.

This proposal/sequence is intended principally for Interregnum 2, in part because it will be that much harder to do in Interregnum 1 because of the map. The new map has, for example, a separate province for Trier and Mainz and so I was able to write specific storylines for each of those electoral arch-bishoprics. Indeed, Trier begins the game as a separate country, which it could not do in Int1.

I wrote events to lay the groundwork for the 'gathering storm' as the Wittelsbach move enexorably toward the hereditary control of the empeorship and the formation of Germany and the Pope and opposing 'imperial' families try to outmanouver them.

Download the file here.

So, there are many possible outcomes in all of this. Maybe there is no Iberian crusade, maybe there is. Maybe Bavaria takes up the challenge, maybe it doesn't. Maybe the Pope backs down from confronting the Wittelsbachs, maybe not. There are many paths and outcomes.

Let us assume three things have occured.

1. Albrecht der Weise is Emperor.

2. The Pope has decided to continue to challenge the Wittelsbachs.

3. The Pope's early gambits, involving the election of archbishops in Trier and Mainz have proven successful.

The first item, that of Albrecht being emperor, is what leads to the formation of Germania, by Albrecht trying to make the role hereditary. He is a powerful figure, rules for a long time and is thought to control ebough votes. the question is, how would this look? What is the process? This is worth it's own thread, I suppose, but I suspect that it will be intimately debated with points 2 and 3.

The position and success of the Pope is what can lead to the Early Reformation, which is a politically-motivated break between the Emperor and the Pope, rather than one grounded is strong theological differences, as the 'normal' reformation is (although it correlatees with the motivations of monarchs like Henry VIII).

How would this break between Rome and the Emperor look and play out?

In amongst all the discussions we need to remember that until the Source Code Team build a new HRE (and if paradox allows it) we are stuck with the clumsy HRE and tools of EU2. So, let's not have suggestions for things that are almost impossible to code or actually are impossible to code.

 

[MattyG]

I'll post here bobtdwarf's initial response to my PM to him about the process of moving to a hereditary emperorship and the formation of Germania.

His response was:

"
How complicated do you want this to be? The more complex the more can go wrong...

The fundamental event is going to be the changing of the capitulation of the empire to allow for direct inheritance by the blood heir... so no more election until such time as their is a problem with the inheritance or the heir is unclear. This would essentially make all the states of the empire vassals of BAY and then things would get a bit more organized as something along the reichkreis (IIRC) is done and things start looking like more of a conventional nation as the members join up and are annexed directly (some tax loss and manpower hit per country as the nobles retain some wealth etc).

"

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I dunno, it feels like were playing with old themes all over again - Emperor Henry and Pope Gregory in Cannosa - rinse and repeat. The struggle between HRE and the papacy needs to be looked at in a different light perhaps. We should for example, assume that the Emperors did not bend to the demands of successive popes to relegate investiture to the Church (Diet of Worms 1122) and that HRE, under successful Emperors, managed to change the nature of the aristocracy from one based on Church affiliates and Archbishops to a laity nobility instead - in the lines of France or England in RL. I'd rather see a powerful HRE in the begining of the 15th century and a weakened papacy, with the latter reforming the Church in response to Imperial intragence.

 

[MattyG]

This is definitely an interesting idea for another mod, Calipah.

Conflict, though, is more interesting and is a core dynamic for EU2. More importantly, we have written now thousands of events related to to potential conflict between the Pope and the Emperor and it is too late to change direction on that.

It also fittingly gives us the third of our three reformation options: the traditional, which comes essentially from the people; the Alternative, which comes from Rome, and the Early, which will be initiated by the emperor. Each also has its own motivation. The traditional is a mix of theological and political, the early reformation will be almost entirely political and the alternative reformation will be a theological challenge from the top down,precipitating a political division.

 

[LordInsane]

The fundamental event is going to be the changing of the capitulation of the empire to allow for direct inheritance by the blood heir... so no more election until such time as their is a problem with the inheritance or the heir is unclear. This would essentially make all the states of the empire vassals of BAY and then things would get a bit more organized as something along the reichkreis (IIRC) is done and things start looking like more of a conventional nation as the members join up and are annexed directly (some tax loss and manpower hit per country as the nobles retain some wealth etc).

Yes, that makes sense- presumable, the order of being annexed would begin with the weaker, smaller states, who have more of an interest in aligning with the Emperor for their own protection, and less power to lose, and end with the strongest states, excepting in all cases the Electorates, as their special status forces the Emperor to give them special privileges- or, in game terms, their special autonomous status would make them merely vassals of BAY/GER, as otherwise their vote for BAY is lost, and there's more chance for things going funky with someone else then the Wittelsbachs being elected Emperors. Argh for EUII not doing things as OTL, and EUIII first doing things more like OTL, but then changing them to be more ahistorical!

 

[unmerged(36449)]

Yes, that makes sense- presumable, the order of being annexed would begin with the weaker, smaller states, who have more of an interest in aligning with the Emperor for their own protection, and less power to lose, and end with the strongest states, excepting in all cases the Electorates, as their special status forces the Emperor to give them special privileges- or, in game terms, their special autonomous status would make them merely vassals of BAY/GER, as otherwise their vote for BAY is lost, and there's more chance for things going funky with someone else then the Wittelsbachs being elected Emperors. Argh for EUII not doing things as OTL, and EUIII first doing things more like OTL, but then changing them to be more ahistorical!

Actually I think we are going to have to absorb rather then vassal the electorates because of how the game has an ugly tendency to do strange things with vassals. The having somebody else elected emperor based on how the engine doesn't handle that very well at all can be used as an indicator of the Pope in a never ending hissy fit throwing the title to somebody else(in practical terms it is going to go to somebody that has good relations with BAY/GER anyway so they are only getting a free military access). Considering the heavy influence the first reich had on the second; the post formation state should look a lot like the second reich... subkingdoms within the empire itself that are unable to break away or have any foreign policy separate from the empire (except Bayern, they had the right of their own diplomatic corps and legation within the imperial embassies); something that we can not simulate with the engine really.

Though I do agree that they would be the last things absorbed. However unless we wish to run afoul of the game having a vassal at war with it' master or vice versa absorption is the safest option. Not to mention that in a lot of games that I have played vassals have a tendency to give up land in peace deals that in this circumstance would be bad.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

With the recent return of bobtdwarf I'd like to continue discussion on one of the exciting developments for Interregnum 2, which involves the struggle for the HRE, the Wittelsbachs, the formation of Germania and the possible early Reformation.

I don't want to see a repeat of too much of the early discussion, so for those who were not around, read this thread first, especially the second half of it, as it was a thread that evolved somewhat.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318814

So, now you are up-to-date on discussions.

This proposal/sequence is intended principally for Interregnum 2, in part because it will be that much harder to do in Interregnum 1 because of the map. The new map has, for example, a separate province for Trier and Mainz and so I was able to write specific storylines for each of those electoral arch-bishoprics. Indeed, Trier begins the game as a separate country, which it could not do in Int1.

I wrote events to lay the groundwork for the 'gathering storm' as the Wittelsbach move enexorably toward the hereditary control of the empeorship and the formation of Germany and the Pope and opposing 'imperial' families try to outmanouver them.

Download the file here.

So, there are many possible outcomes in all of this. Maybe there is no Iberian crusade, maybe there is. Maybe Bavaria takes up the challenge, maybe it doesn't. Maybe the Pope backs down from confronting the Wittelsbachs, maybe not. There are many paths and outcomes.

Let us assume three things have occured.

1. Albrecht der Weise is Emperor.

2. The Pope has decided to continue to challenge the Wittelsbachs.

3. The Pope's early gambits, involving the election of archbishops in Trier and Mainz have proven successful.

The first item, that of Albrecht being emperor, is what leads to the formation of Germania, by Albrecht trying to make the role hereditary. He is a powerful figure, rules for a long time and is thought to control ebough votes. the question is, how would this look? What is the process? This is worth it's own thread, I suppose, but I suspect that it will be intimately debated with points 2 and 3.

The position and success of the Pope is what can lead to the Early Reformation, which is a politically-motivated break between the Emperor and the Pope, rather than one grounded is strong theological differences, as the 'normal' reformation is (although it correlatees with the motivations of monarchs like Henry VIII).

How would this break between Rome and the Emperor look and play out?

In amongst all the discussions we need to remember that until the Source Code Team build a new HRE (and if paradox allows it) we are stuck with the clumsy HRE and tools of EU2. So, let's not have suggestions for things that are almost impossible to code or actually are impossible to code.

Albrecht himself could start the ball rolling but he himself will not directly benefit from it if he is voted HEI by other then his "own" votes, IE if he is elected by something approaching a normal election. If he has all the votes he needs under his direct physical control(and this would include in the hands of subbranches of the family), then he can write his own capitulation. But if he takes control of the last vote during his reign as HEI then it would be his son that would be the first hereditary emperor as Albrecht is bound by the contract he accepted upon taking the throne.

Now assuming that Albrecht has all the votes within the blood line upon his ascension and the Pope is still being a bother, one of the larger members of the empire could attempt to resist this. However a few caveats:

1. If we are trying to be as accurate as possible the AI controlled smaller states of the empire are toast as they have in all but a few cases no true means of resisting(technically they were forbidden from having an army). Human controlled nations could and probably will.

2. The resisting actor will have to have substantial support from outside the empire as it is initially doubtful that they could last against the bulk of the empire in a fight. The safest form of that support would be cash as hiring mercenaries would not be seen in the same light as foreign troops intervening in an internal matter.

3. There should be some revolt risk to both parties. The emperors party is establishing a new variation of the social order so it is bound to ruffle a few feathers amongst some of the nobility. A plus one should be sufficient as there would also be those in favor of it so it will tend to balance out a bit. The opposer though should get a plus two and a plus three if they take foreign troops. The reason for the higher values is that they are also going to have roughly the same numbers of pro and con to the proposition with the skew going to the pro because of the perceived advantage the HEI has in troops plus there are going to be a whole helluva lot of scared peasants because of that same perception; and having outside powers come in is likely to be seen as a bad thing by just about everyone. The opposition has more at stake in proportion to it' position.

4. Depending upon war results RR should go down or increase.. if the HEI is winning as in taking provinces it should go down for the HEI and up for the oppo and vice versa. Though that may be damn near impossible to code it still needs to be said just so there is a record of it being thought of along with the preceding point if it is not worth coding as a defense against any future complaints.

 

[LordInsane]

Actually I think we are going to have to absorb rather then vassal the electorates because of how the game has an ugly tendency to do strange things with vassals. The having somebody else elected emperor based on how the engine doesn't handle that very well at all can be used as an indicator of the Pope in a never ending hissy fit throwing the title to somebody else(in practical terms it is going to go to somebody that has good relations with BAY/GER anyway so they are only getting a free military access). Considering the heavy influence the first reich had on the second; the post formation state should look a lot like the second reich... subkingdoms within the empire itself that are unable to break away or have any foreign policy separate from the empire (except Bayern, they had the right of their own diplomatic corps and legation within the imperial embassies); something that we can not simulate with the engine really.

Though I do agree that they would be the last things absorbed. However unless we wish to run afoul of the game having a vassal at war with it' master or vice versa absorption is the safest option. Not to mention that in a lot of games that I have played vassals have a tendency to give up land in peace deals that in this circumstance would be bad.

Though, Interregnum is a bit... different, in that there is an Elector that is very much clearly outside Germany (Milan)... er, according to the opening blurb for the affected, if I remember correctly, and if that hasn't been changed for Interregnum 2. And what about Burgundy?

 

[unmerged(36449)]

Though, Interregnum is a bit... different, in that there is an Elector that is very much clearly outside Germany (Milan)... er, according to the opening blurb for the affected, if I remember correctly, and if that hasn't been changed for Interregnum 2. And what about Burgundy?

As I recall those were being discussed as ways the Pope could throw a wrench into the works. If they have been done and the process to form a united Germany still goes forward it is not a deal breaker to have them outside the empire, they would just be vassals.

 

[LordInsane]

As I recall those were being discussed as ways the Pope could throw a wrench into the works. If they have been done and the process to form a united Germany still goes forward it is not a deal breaker to have them outside the empire, they would just be vassals.

For Milan/Lombardia/Possibly-Italy-if-events-for-that-are-done, yes, if they, sometime around the time of becoming a vassal also loses their remaining Germany-proper territories (they might, and Savoy does, cross the border of the Kingdom of Italy and Kingdom of Germany parts of the HRE, so...).
Burgundy is a bit different, in that there is less of a natural border to seperate it- it would be more part of the HRE proper, quite simply. So one could argue that annexation could be warranted for them, if the centralisation goes far enough for the Emperor to have a great deal of influence again over Italy, this being before the nationalist concept.
That last thing means that Bohemia would be included in the process as well, of course, it being an integral part of the HRE and the Kingdom of Germany before it.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

For Milan/Lombardia/Possibly-Italy-if-events-for-that-are-done, yes, if they, sometime around the time of becoming a vassal also loses their remaining Germany-proper territories (they might, and Savoy does, cross the border of the Kingdom of Italy and Kingdom of Germany parts of the HRE, so...).
Burgundy is a bit different, in that there is less of a natural border to seperate it- it would be more part of the HRE proper, quite simply. So one could argue that annexation could be warranted for them, if the centralisation goes far enough for the Emperor to have a great deal of influence again over Italy, this being before the nationalist concept.
That last thing means that Bohemia would be included in the process as well, of course, it being an integral part of the HRE and the Kingdom of Germany before it.

Savoy is in a strange position. It borders the KoI and most of it' territory used to be part of the Kingdom of Arles, the old Kingdom of Burgundy that was in the South of France. Savoy proper though was part of Germany(or course I am referring to the existing Savoy within Ab/Int and not the RL one which was part of Germany with portions of it' territory part of Italy). Now the emperor wore three crowns at one point just for being emperor: Germany, Lotharingia, and Arles. At some point they stopped referring to Arles at all, why and when I don't remember or recall. These are just the "safe" crowns that came with the job Italy was also one of the crowns but all to often required a bit more work as did Bohemia just of different kinds.

 

[MattyG]

And lets remember that Savoy in Interregnum 2 is Arles, not Savoy (although Savoy might be part of the game as a duchy that can revolt if Arles no longer exists, but anyway).

The additional votes (Arles and Burgundy, not Milan, and if it says that I need to change it) make it harder for the Wittelsbachs to control all of them, or enough to ensure the title becomes hereditary and that Germania can be formed.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

And lets remember that Savoy in Interregnum 2 is Arles, not Savoy (although Savoy might be part of the game as a duchy that can revolt if Arles no longer exists, but anyway).

The additional votes (Arles and Burgundy, not Milan, and if it says that I need to change it) make it harder for the Wittelsbachs to control all of them, or enough to ensure the title becomes hereditary and that Germania can be formed.

Good call on using Arles... having the Pope resurrect that title is sure to piss off the emperor in a hot purple teeth spitting way. And having a pair of speed bumps is not a bad thing, though it would be worth exploring a maximal unlikely outcome as a thought exercise I don't know what would be the best point in the discussion to do so; if the Wittelsbach manage to pull off the formation post inclusion of BUR and SAV into the empire that would be "interesting". On a related note we may need to plan for an FU event series wherein the votes of those two electors are ignored (gobs and gobs of potential BB there), that would be one conflict heavy event chain...

 

[MattyG]

Good call on using Arles... having the Pope resurrect that title is sure to piss off the emperor in a hot purple teeth spitting way. And having a pair of speed bumps is not a bad thing, though it would be worth exploring a maximal unlikely outcome as a thought exercise I don't know what would be the best point in the discussion to do so; if the Wittelsbach manage to pull off the formation post inclusion of BUR and SAV into the empire that would be "interesting". On a related note we may need to plan for an FU event series wherein the votes of those two electors are ignored (gobs and gobs of potential BB there), that would be one conflict heavy event chain...

Because of the EU2 setup, those two votes are there from 1419 onwards, although Burgundy can reject the offer of being a kingdom, which is what grants it the vote as part of the Pope's deal, which swicthes its tag and takes that vote out of the system.

So it could just be the standard 7 votes plus Arles.

I think that Burgindy and Arles would surely refuse to be vassals of Germania in the EU2 sense of vassal, no?

How could the emperor ignore their votes?

 

[unmerged(36449)]

Because of the EU2 setup, those two votes are there from 1419 onwards, although Burgundy can reject the offer of being a kingdom, which is what grants it the vote as part of the Pope's deal, which swicthes its tag and takes that vote out of the system.

So it could just be the standard 7 votes plus Arles.

I think that Burgindy and Arles would surely refuse to be vassals of Germania in the EU2 sense of vassal, no?

How could the emperor ignore their votes?

Depends upon whether they "join" the empire or not and if the formation of a unified empire causes them to leave. If they don't leave, but do not wish to join a unified Germany then they would logically become the same kind of vassal state that Italy was. Honestly I think that Burgundy would beat feet out of the arrangement pronto, Arles however is a much different bird; Arles has always been a part of the empire so there may be some inertia to accept it. As I said there is a possibility of varying levels of success in forming a united nation here with a lot of permutations, one of which would be laying claim to all territories of the empire once it is united which would bring them into conflict with Burgundy and Arles. Another would be cutting some of the peripheral states out of the new united empire to concentrate on consolidation of the heart of the empire.

As to ignoring the electors it would be a matter of the emperor muting them using the Papal usurpation/interference as a reason and in the case of Burgundy the being outside what he considers the empire. Sure it may go over like a lead balloon and there would be consequences that are somewhat painful for doing it but it is within the realm of possibility.

 

[LordInsane]

Depends upon whether they "join" the empire or not and if the formation of a unified empire causes them to leave. If they don't leave, but do not wish to join a unified Germany then they would logically become the same kind of vassal state that Italy was. Honestly I think that Burgundy would beat feet out of the arrangement pronto, Arles however is a much different bird; Arles has always been a part of the empire so there may be some inertia to accept it. As I said there is a possibility of varying levels of success in forming a united nation here with a lot of permutations, one of which would be laying claim to all territories of the empire once it is united which would bring them into conflict with Burgundy and Arles. Another would be cutting some of the peripheral states out of the new united empire to concentrate on consolidation of the heart of the empire.

And one would be to reclaim the more properly 'German' parts of them, but otherwise cutting the peripherals out. Given that most of the Kingdom of Burgundy's areas of expansion lies within the Empire, and the Kingdom of Germany at that, this would probably bring them into conflict with Burgundy, but Arles might be another matter,