Interesting Visualization of a German Tank Division

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S.Brandt

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Found this interesting clip today of how German tank divisions where organized during the beginning of WW2.
The person that made the video even uses HoI3 Black ICE Mod counters! :)

Just thought that it might be of interest to some of you that are dying to try out division builder in HoI4.

EDIT:
I guess it´s also wise to add a link to the video....

Enjoy!
 
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fabius

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Axe99

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That's a top find, cheers for posting @S.Brandt :). I didn't realise how many AC's they had - deffo a good argument for modding 'em in.
 
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Axe99

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That number of AC's (2 companies) per division only applied to the 39 & 40 campaigns. After that the recon battalions normally only had one AC company.

Aye, but even if you cut the number of AC's in half, if that video is on the money, that's 45 per division, which is a fair complement. I'm only talking modding here, not arguing for 'em in the base game - but happy to be told I don't know what I'm talking about, as that would be accurate :).
 
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panzerzombie

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Great videos ! I look forward to the second part of the vid where he will try to prove mathematically ( i think ) which tank was the most efficient by including reliability, ease of production, resource cost etc....
 

jamesd

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Aye, but even if you cut the number of AC's in half, if that video is on the money, that's 45 per division, which is a fair complement. I'm only talking modding here, not arguing for 'em in the base game - but happy to be told I don't know what I'm talking about, as that would be accurate :).

The 1941 KTSN was 27 per company plus 1 in Battalion HQ. To get 90 in the 1939 Pz Division, I'm thinking that some radio cars (unarmoured cars equipped with radios and used for signals duties) or unarmed armoured cars (without radios) used by infantry commanders may have been included.

I looked up the US light armoured division TOE and it included 54 armoured cars, so that would still be a fair complement for modding. I wasn't seeking to pass judgement, just provide information.
 
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Axe99

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The 1941 KTSN was 27 per company plus 1 in Battalion HQ. To get 90 in the 1939 Pz Division, I'm thinking that some radio cars (unarmoured cars equipped with radios and used for signals duties) or unarmed armoured cars (without radios) used by infantry commanders may have been included.

I looked up the US light armoured division ToE and it included 54 armoured cars, so that would still be a fair complement for modding. I wasn't seeking to pass judgement, just provide information.

And good information it is, and greatly appreciated :). I'm afraid I'm unlikely to be the one modding it (I've got a bajillion ships on my list already), but that's good info to have on the forums :).
 

Polarisan

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Seeing all this I do believe that a single tank division from germany could have taken over south america on its own.
 
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Shatterfury

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So the Germans had motorised infantry at first, when did they make the transition to mechanised infantry as support infantry for their Panzer divisions ?

Did the ration between motorised/mechanised infantry vary too much during the war or was is almost 50/50 ?
 

jamesd

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So the Germans had motorised infantry at first, when did they make the transition to mechanised infantry as support infantry for their Panzer divisions ?

Did the ration between motorised/mechanised infantry vary too much during the war or was is almost 50/50 ?

Despite the change in title mid war from Schutzen (Rifle) to Panzer Grenadier, most of the infantry in German armoured divisions remained unarmoured throughout the war.

In Sep 1939 the most common infantry structure was 2 motorised and 1 motorcycle infantry battalions, plus 1 motorcycle company in the recon battalion.

In May 1940 almost all had 4 motorised/motorcycle infantry battalions plus 1 motorcycle company in the recon battalion.

In Jun 1941 the standard infantry structure was 4 motorised and 1 motorcycle infantry battalions plus 1 motorcycle company in the recon battalion. 1st Panzer Division had 2 mechanised battalions in place of 2 motorised battalions, but most other divisions only had a single mechanised company in one of the motorised battalions and some had no mechanised infantry.

By late 1943 the theoretical structure was 1 mechanised and 3 motorised infantry battalions plus 2 mechanised infantry companies in the recon battalion.

The 1945 theoretical structure was 1 small (under 500 men) mechanised battalion, 4 motorised/bicycle battalions and 2 motorised companies in the recon battalion.

At any point in time there could be significant variations between divisions, for example the Panzer-Lehr Division had its infantry fully mechanised, but was the only division so equipped. Even the SS Panzer Divisions tended to have only 1-2 of their 6 infantry battalions mechanised. The battalions of the Panzer Grenadier Divisions were all motorised, with the only mechanised infantry being the 2 companies in the later war recon battalion.

The wide variety of structures in use at any point in time is of some concern to me in that I'd like to use fairly historical templates. I can see myself wanting the following panzer division templates:
1. standard panzer division
2. lesser equipped panzer division
3. Panzer Lehr Division
4. SS Panzer Divisions & GD Division

The lesser equipped panzer divisions could have a motorised battalion in place of a mechanised, a towed artillery bn in place of a SP bn and a towed AT bn in place of a SP bn. Then as more new equipment is produced divisions could be switched over 1 at a time. It would also be nice to have a second SS template to do the same thing as there could be big variations between the equipment of say 1st & 2nd SS Panzer Divisions vs that of say 9th & 10th SS Panzer Divisions.

It would be nice if there was a function whereby if there are shortages of mechanised or SP equipment, but surpluses of motorised, then motorised equipment is used to make up the shortfall. Similarly if there were shortages of heavy tanks, mediums could be substituted and for shortages of mediums, lights could be substituted. That would be historical and allow for more variations between divisions with fewer templates required.
 
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tommylotto

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It would be nice if there was a function whereby if there are shortages of mechanised or SP equipment, but surpluses of motorised, then motorised equipment is used to make up the shortfall. Similarly if there were shortages of heavy tanks, mediums could be substituted and for shortages of mediums, lights could be substituted. That would be historical and allow for more variations between divisions with fewer templates required.

Great Idea
 
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Shatterfury

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@jamesd
Thank you very much for the information.

So the mechanisation was rather slow but I guess it would be too costly as well.

Since Germany has two trees - one focusing on panzers and the other on panzer grenadier I guess the player has to specialise.

If panzer focus is chosen It would be wise to put as many panzers in the field that means even light panzers are welcome and heavy panzers would just mean a suboptimal of resources.
With Germany not having enough resources compared to how much the German industry can consume light panzers are in the cards.

I think I would go with one light panzer battalion for every two medium panzer battalions.The infantry will have to be motorised and maybe one mechanised battalion if it confers special bonuses if not motorised.

This way Germany can put more panzer divisions in the field.

Maybe I could make 3 or 4 more special panzer divisions with all medium panzers and mechanised battalions, well have to see the game first.

If USSR falls in 42 or so than things change.By this point Germany has a big army had it would have access to more resources and oil, thus a shift to all medium panzer division with mechanised infantry can be achieved rather than putting more economical panzer divisions in the field.

How about the ratio between infantry battalions and panzer battalions inside a panzer division, it remained somewhere around the middle ? 50/50 ?