Interest and development thread for a new Kingdom game

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Economics and Technology

Some thoughts. Use, modify or discard at your leisure.

Each province has a starting population of 100 adults (Citizens) at tech level one.

Players assign an initial role to each citizen; either as Farmer, Artisan, Philosopher, Warrior, or Miner.
Each period, the players can reassign up to ten percent of the population to a different role.

Roles:
Farmers - Till the land, hunt the forests, fish the seas - Create food
Each Farmer produces 2d6 units of food.

Miners - Dig/smelt the rocks for metals
Each Miner produces one Metal Ingot.

Artisans - Create the tools to increase the yields from labor. Build the products used in commerce.
Each Artisan creates one point of craft.

Natural Philosophers - produce a d6 of Knowledge. Every 100 points accumulated in Knowledge increases tech level for the province by one in the studied field. The fields are; Agriculture, Geology, Physics, and Engineering.

Warriors - Engage in Combat. A warrior is a citizen not filling another Role.


Item Costs:
Two Tools cost one ingot, two points of craft
Five Goods cost two food, one ingot, and three craft

One Foot Soldier equipment costs one Ingot and three Craft.
One Horse Soldier equipment costs three Ingots and nine Craft.
Militia cost nothing other than the loss of the individuals’ labor in another role.

Tool Assignment Benefits -
Tools increase the yield from a citizen in their Role. Each allowed tool assigned to a person acts as if an additional person was assigned to the task the person is doing.
Tool use restriction - Tech level - Number of tools a person can use limited to tech level.


Turn Sequence:
A. Feed the people
Each person consumes two units of food.

B. Pay the people
Distribute Goods. Happiness equals the number of Goods the person receives.

C. Poll the people.
Compare average local population Happiness with that of the neighboring provinces.
1. If local Happiness is twice that of neighbors then they are Patriotic.
2. If greater than neighbors, but less than twice theirs, then they are Loyal.
3. If it is greater than three quarters the neighbors’ value, then they are Content.
4. If it is at least half the neighbors, then they are Unhappy.
5. Less than that is Rebellious.

D. Population Growth
If each adult consumes full food throughout year, add four new adults.
If all adults consume half food throughout year, add two new adults.
Less - no growth.

 

[DoomBunny]

Waaaaay too complex. It's better to abstract things as much as possible in these sorts of games.

I think we should even consider removing tech advance/holding upgrading altogether (Save of course for adding new fortifications and palaces and the such, which will have an effect determined by the GM as they are built) or at least making it incredibly slow. It doesn't really make sense in this time period for a village to turn into a city within the time of a century, nor to go from mail to plate in the same time.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Playing as the rulers of the Wynelands would be nice, far away from those pesky wilderlings and making a nice safe income from delicious wyne.

* cough * Gallus invades every 2 turns *cough*



EDIT: And I'm with Doom on that one. As far as I'm concernced, you'd only be able to upgrade your holdings (but that takes time and money) and to improove the quality of your troops. It all depends on the time scope we're giving it, if every turn takes 6 months then it's impossible to introduce a whole new tech system (say gunpowder) overnight. That type of developments should haven every decade or so and via GM events.

In line with that, I think I'm gonna go ahead and add median times for upgrade for the locations. It should take 6 months to move from level 2 to 3 but it has to take at least 2 years to move from 42 to 43. Of course, the actual time for development has to be affected by the GM's roll on the order

EDIT2: While I'm at it, I'll start playing with the current locations there are (the last map I posted) to see levels and also the troop cost working with this:

Light Infantry: Peasant levies equipped with whatever they can scrounge up. Can actually be usefull in big enough numbers

Archers: catch all term for ranged infantry troops, be they shortbows, longbows, crossbows, or what have you

Drilled Infantry: Somewhere between Light and Heavy infantry, these footmen are semi-pro fighters who fight as a unit in formations. Landsknechts, Swiss-style pikemen, etc.

Heavy Infantry: Professional soldiers, well equipped with melee weapons and armor

Light Cavalry: Fast unit, lacks the heavy impact of knights but great for recon, skirmishing, raiding and running down fleeing units.

Heavy Cavalry: Mounted knights, squires, and other such men of war. Heavy armor and devestating shock charge, but expensive and sometimes undisciplined.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Chart done, here's a sample of it:

Summervale:
Total Income: 1.197
Total levels: 117

Agricor:
Loyalty (0-1): 1
Levels: City (36), Mon (-1), Castle (-1)
Income: 508, 0, 0
Total income: 508
Upgrade cost: City (923), Mon (0), Castle (0)
Upgrade time: City (4), Mon (0), Castle (0)

Turford:
Loyalty (0-1): 1
Levels: City (-1), Mon (-1), Castle (36)
Income: 0, 0, 261
Total income: 508
Upgrade cost: City (0), Mon (0), Castle (479)
Upgrade time: City (4), Mon (0), Castle (4)


It's all a row in a chart, you know it's practically impossible to post a chart decently here. The -1 level is for the chart's formulas, to indicate that structure's not there.

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Chart done, here's a sample of it:

Summervale:
Agricor: 1
Loyalty (0-1): 1
Levels: City (36), Mon (-1), Castle (-1)
Income: 508, 0, 0
Total income: 508
Upgrade cost: City (923), Mon (0), Castle (0)
Upgrade time: City (4), Mon (0), Castle (0)

Why these crooked numbers? 508? 923? What about 500 and 1000?

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Why these crooked numbers? 508? 923? What about 500 and 1000?

Because I used the uncrooked numbers for levels 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 49. The others in the middle were extrapolated using a normal distribution, to represent the effects of scales in economy (IRL things don't increase linearly). If you see the graphs I posted, each tier of 10 levels looks a bit like an S shaped curve.
And I rounded them up, with the decimals it could have been worse.
Anyhow, all the math is done, all you have to do is input the sites and the level and the sheet calculates the rest.

EDIT: The total income considers the site's loyalty as a modifier:
Total income = loyalty*(city income + mon income + castle income)

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Because I used the uncrooked numbers for levels 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 49. The others in the middle were extrapolated using a normal distribution, to represent the effects of scales in economy (IRL things don't increase linearly). If you see the graphs I posted, each tier of 10 levels looks a bit like an S shaped curve.
And I rounded them up, with the decimals it could have been worse.
Anyhow, all the math is done, all you have to do is input the sites and the level and the sheet calculates the rest.

EDIT: The total income considers the site's loyalty as a modifier:
Total income = loyalty*(city income + mon income + castle income)

Ah, science.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Science!

 

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Players recruit agents to accomplish missions, as in SPI's 'Freedom in the Galaxy'?

 

[unmerged(254030)]

I'm interested, although as I am new and this is a bit daunting, I'd rather not start as a lord, dealing with marriages and major politics. If I could, I'd like to be one of the clergy, or if that is not possible then a vassal.

If it is possible to be the Primus, I'd perhaps enjoy that. Sending out reforms, bringing the cardinals under my rule, crowning kings..

On that note, are kings crowned by a religious figure? Does this figure hold any power? How much power does the faith have?

 

[hygge0302]

I'am the creator of the last The Kingdoms Game. It was too complicated and had too many players. My personal experience is coherrent with Stucken's the game's rules need to be as simple as possible, if not the GM will collapse sooner or later from the burden. Also if this game becomes a thing I would like to join it. I could imagine myself as the Lord of Summervale .

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

I'am the creator of the last The Kingdoms Game. It was too complicated and had too many players. My personal experience is coherrent with Stucken's the game's rules need to be as simple as possible, if not the GM will collapse sooner or later from the burden. Also if this game becomes a thing I would like to join it. I could imagine myself as the Lord of Summervale .

Aye, and this game spells GM outburn rather sooner than later. Character system, several cities with levels, economic system. For how many players? Who on earth wants to update that for, say, 30 turns? Streamlining is the key here.

 

[DoomBunny]

IMO

Divide the realm into a set of holdings around the mini ones you have created. Each holding has a defence level (Given by the forts in it, this should cost a lot to upgrade, several terms of all a persons holdings income at least per level), an income and an amount of levees that may be raised from it. Settlement themselves may not be improved, although one is able to order the construction of new walls for the castle, levee training grounds and other stuff you can think of.

Tech stays the same throughout the game, IMO it should be a mix of Norman - Transitional stuff. So ranging from mail hauberks and kite shields to mail with plates and sugarloaf helms. I think it shouldn't play much of a role. I'm not sure if troop levelling is really needed, as a peasant is a peasant, and the game will quickly end up with everyone having mail armoured peasants.

Military wise, we would say 'Send X amount of troops to attack holding Y being very cautious' or 'Send A amount of troops under Sir Dingleberry to engage the hostile force B in holding C'.

An example.

Mistwater:
Lord - Sir Fluffybottom the Brave
Allegiance - Dale
Defence - 5
Income - 50
Troops - 500 Spearmen , 500 Archers, 100 Knights

Furthermore, I think we need to heavily abstract foreign realms. It would be best if we simply drew their borders, put the holdings on and then let the GM make up the holdings information as they become needed (For example, if we invade Kingdom X and siege Castle Y, the GM can just give it a defence value and some troops as a garrison.

 

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EDIT: missed those maps. Sorry.

***

Could I work a bit on the faith? As mentioned, I plan on playing as those religious counties if possible, so I could flesh it out a bit. Work some mythology and what not into it. And I could provide some names and locations in Nordland and Sudwald, as they do not appear to be done yet. Unless you planned for there to be only two locations in each.

..Nordland and Sudwald are the church holdings, right?

May I assume this is a monotheistic, Christianity-like religion? I will definitely change it up, but are there any things you want included/excluded?

 

[Mr. Santiago]

EDIT: missed those maps. Sorry.

***

Could I work a bit on the faith? As mentioned, I plan on playing as those religious counties if possible, so I could flesh it out a bit. Work some mythology and what not into it. And I could provide some names and locations in Nordland and Sudwald, as they do not appear to be done yet. Unless you planned for there to be only two locations in each.

..Nordland and Sudwald are the church holdings, right?

May I assume this is a monotheistic, Christianity-like religion? I will definitely change it up, but are there any things you want included/excluded?

An excuse as good as any to post a new map. This time I've further divided the lordships into the holdings, regardless of what they are. The 2 wilderling vassals (except for the northern one's capital) are yet to be made, and the Dawnlands as well... In case any of you gets inspired

Also, I've marked the fact that the churclands (Nordland and Sudwald) do have vassals, per Doom's backstory and that Taaland has an overlord. So, no independent small counties for you



As for streamlining or not, I've already made the economic chart for the game, like the example I posted above. Whether you can update your possesions or not, I don't care much, the numerical hevy lifting is done from my part. I even was thinking about the amount of money that goes from a vassal to the great lord, that it could be set by the players.

 

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So there's no church lands? Where is this idea of Doom's? I read through this thread, and do not recall it.

Despite this apparent setback for my cause, that map is very enlightening. Thank you.
Buuuut....why couldn't Sudwald and its vassal Yaurkeshire be church lands? There could be some major cathedral there, and it was given to the church to further pay off the takeover of the demesne.

EDIT: looked back, Doom's idea said Sudwald belonged to the Archbishop, meaning that it is church property, no? I do not mean to say that church land is an independent nation, simply that at this time it is ruled de jure by the Primus.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Doom's idea is scattered among his 3 massive posts 2/3 pages back.

Sudwald and Nordland are church's lands; I have listed their capitals as monasteries (Shireton abbey and St. Albert both at levels 30ish over 50 ), so the archbishop rules them as if he where another lord. Each of them has a feudal lord as vassal, Yaurkeshire to Sudwald and the Dale to Nordland. So, yeah, they are church property in the sense you're using, AFAIK.

The other neumarkish (TM) archbishop has his seat in Sasenmouth (Crownlands).

 

[unmerged(254030)]

Ah, and that's why I cannot be both Sudwald and Nordland- they are equal! I had figured the one was vassal to the other. Skimmed through this stuff again, and I have a better idea now.

Why do Nordland/Dale have 5 provinces, while Sudwald/Yaurkeshire have three? That is a tad imbalanced. If you would like, I would add a second province to Yaurkeshire and a third to Sudwald.

(courtesy of wallbase.cc)

This would be the reason Sudwald/Yaurkeshire land was chosen to be given to the pope as pacification (sticking to Doom's stuff); it is the seat of the Archbishop's power in the region (Yaurkeshire). It is a major religious attraction there, The Cathedral of St. Marcus. It is from Deag's suggested Roman era, built time and again, changing hands and even religions as time went on. I can expand greatly on this, if I may.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Why do Nordland/Dale have 5 provinces, while Sudwald/Yaurkeshire have three? That is a tad imbalanced. If you would like, I would add a second province to Yaurkeshire and a third to Sudwald.

'Cause the main map was getting crowded and I was too lazy to fit 2 more sites in

Anyhow, it's not only the number of sites that there are, it's also their size that matters, for instance, the Dale has 3 cities but they are all small so they make little

But you do have a point on the unbalance..., checking the incomes I gave them, Nordland/Dale makes $850 and Sudwald/Yaurkeshire makes $770 (provided that the owner gets the whole income from all the sites)

(And I should find a way to post it all here)

 

[unmerged(254030)]

'Cause the main map was getting crowded and I was too lazy to fit 2 more sites in

Anyhow, it's not only the number of sites that there are, it's also their size that matters, for instance, the Dale has 3 cities but they are all small so they make little

But you do have a point on the unbalance..., checking the incomes I gave them, Nordland/Dale makes $850 and Sudwald/Yaurkeshire makes $770 (provided that the owner gets the whole income from all the sites)

(And I should find a way to post it all here)

Well, you could make my cathedral a smaller province on the coast of Yaurkeshire, which would make the difference or so in money via donations due to pilgrimages.

I think I'm just going to write up my stuff about religion and post it once its done. See where that takes me.