Interesring link about T-34 - NOT the best tank in the war?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

scroggin

Lt. General
20 Badges
Jul 13, 2010
1.685
717
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Everything you said is true of the reverse as well, and you are not addressing anything I said.

You have not succeeded in making a relevant point.




1) You entirely ignored my point about the later 76mm Sherman guns.

2) You are describing very idealistic situations for the Tiger, when actual combat engagements were usually much closer and well within the effective range of both 75mm and 76mm allied guns.

3) The Panther had a 75mm gun, not an 88mm. Panthers were always far more common than Tigers.

4) Panthers and Tigers were very rare in Italy, making your entire argument in regards to Italy fallacious.

5) Tigers were almost non-existent in Normandy, and Tigers/Panthers combined consisted of less than 50% of Tanks in the German divisions in Normandy.

6) The number of Panthers were far larger in Normandy than expected, but this was not as serious of a problem as initially expected, as Shermans with 75mm and 76mm within common combat ranges had no issue dealing with Panthers.

7) Panthers did not have much better armour than the Sherman and were far more mechanically unreliable, and had a 75mm gun that was comparable, not superior, to the later 76mm gun on the Shermans.
About (3) I were talking about 88mm anti-tank guns I know what gun the panthers had. But the 75 mm on the panther was as powerful and flatter shooting than the 88mm gun anyway. And it could both hit and penetrate the sherman long before a sherman 76 could penetrate back. Even the sabot rounds from the 76 were lower velocity than the Pzgr 40/42 round used in the panther.

The reason why it was harder to attack with shermans than to defend is that the defender sets the ambushes and decides what range they will be at. And naturally the germans would set up ambushes at ranges where their tanks and anti-tank guns could kill without being hit back. The elipitical flight of a sherman 75mm round made hitting any target at long range difficult and the 76 didnt have a very good high explosive round. It wasnt just tanks at long range that were a problem for the sherman in 1944.

As for the shermans being able to handle the panthers at the most common ranges. The problem was that it needed a lot of caution and careful tactics to avoid being engaged beyond those ranges. You needed good air support good artillery support and you often had to have infantry scouting ahead to make up for having the weaker tank.
 
  • 4
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
About (3) I were talking about 88mm anti-tank guns I know what gun the panthers had. But the 75 mm on the panther was as powerful and flatter shooting than the 88mm gun anyway. And it could both hit and penetrate the sherman long before a sherman 76 could penetrate back. Even the sabot rounds from the 76 were lower velocity than the Pzgr 40/42 round used in the panther.

The elipitical flight of a sherman 75mm round made hitting any target at long range difficult and the 76 didnt have a very good high explosive round. It wasnt just tanks at long range that were a problem for the sherman in 1944.

Good job ignoring nearly everything I said.

The 76mm M1 and 75mm L70 guns were comparable; you are exaggerating.


The reason why it was harder to attack with shermans than to defend is that the defender sets the ambushes and decides what range they will be at. And naturally the germans would set up ambushes at ranges where their tanks and anti-tank guns could kill without being hit back.

It was harder to attack than to defend, period.

This concept is eluding you.

Instead, you keep responding by trying to make it sound like everything was worse with Shermans, without demonstrating anything.


As for the shermans being able to handle the panthers at the most common ranges. The problem was that it needed a lot of caution and careful tactics to avoid being engaged beyond those ranges. You needed good air support good artillery support and you often had to have infantry scouting ahead to make up for having the weaker tank.

So your response to the fact that the Sherman had no difficulty dealing with Panthers at common combat ranges is a just-so story about how it couldn't actually deal with them... but it did, because it was cheating?

Are you being serious right now?

You are just making things up to support your preferred tanks.
 
Last edited:
  • 7
  • 5
Reactions:

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
anyone who thinks the sherman was the best tank is flat out wrong. the only argument for it is the easiness of mass production, but that had a lot to do with american industry. sherman in combat with mediocre at best.

t-34 is probably the most well balanced tank. easy to produce, and itself as a tank is pretty solid.

Compared to the T-34, the Sherman was more reliable, better armed, better armoured, and had a larger crew with a far more ergonomic internal configuration.

How can you possibly describe it as better than the Sherman, when in every category the Sherman was superior?
 
  • 9
  • 7
Reactions:

scroggin

Lt. General
20 Badges
Jul 13, 2010
1.685
717
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
image.jpeg

Good job ignoring nearly everything I said.

The 76mm M1 and 75mm L70 guns were comparable; you are exaggerating.




It was harder to attack than to defend, period.

This concept is eluding you.

Instead, you keep responding by trying to make it sound like everything was worse with Shermans, without demonstrating anything.




So your response to the fact that the Sherman had no difficulty dealing with Panthers at common combat ranges is a just-so story about how it couldn't actually deal with them... but it did, because it was cheating?

Are you being serious right now?

You are just making things up to support your preferred tanks.
The 76 mm had a muzzle velocity of 2600ft/sec
The 75mm L70 was 3070 ft/sec......not comparable at all. With the panthers thicker armour and better slope the 76mm sherman could penetrate the glacis plate of a panther at 250m. The panther could penetrate a shermans glacis plate at 3000m and could hit it at ranges of around 1500m. Big problem!!! The thiner armour of the sherman gave similar problems with anti-tank guns too.

The sherman was a great tank in 1942 but it was difficult to win using it in 1944.

Yes its always harder to attack than to defend but its harder still to attack with a weaker tank.
 
  • 7
  • 7
  • 1
Reactions:

Opanashc

Field Marshal
62 Badges
Jul 4, 2010
4.736
2.788
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
With the panthers thicker armour and better slope the 76mm sherman could penetrate the glacis plate of a panther at 250m. The panther could penetrate a shermans glacis plate at 3000m and could hit it at ranges of around 1500m. Big problem!!!
That's why people invented smoke screens and such. Hard to hit what you cannot see.
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

scroggin

Lt. General
20 Badges
Jul 13, 2010
1.685
717
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
That's why people invented smoke screens and such. Hard to hit what you cannot see.
Yes there were lots of techniques to cope with the problem. But they all relied on knowing the enemy was there. That mean careful scouting of cover and slower breakthroughs or heavy losses if you made a mistake.
 
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Opanashc

Field Marshal
62 Badges
Jul 4, 2010
4.736
2.788
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
Yes there were lots of techniques to cope with the problem. But they all relied on knowing the enemy was there. That mean careful scouting of cover and slower breakthroughs or heavy losses if you made a mistake.
There is a reason that air reconnaissance, infantry-armor cooperation doctrines and recon platoons were developed.
Besides, it may surprise some, but tanks are not supposed to fight tanks.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Intrepid42

Corporal
80 Badges
Apr 10, 2011
26
45
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Best tank 1v1? Most "combat effectiveness" per ton? Or unit cost?

Do we factor in the country's ability to actually produce it? For example, some tanks were quite competent, but were produced late, and in small numbers.

Do we adjust for the ability to actually get to the battlefield in the first place? WW2 tanks were notorious for breaking down on the way to battle (or at any other time), requiring heavy tank transporters, or being hard to repair in the field.

Regardless, it's fun to debate.

My personal view of the effectiveness of a tank, or any other piece of machinery, is it's fitness for the purpose for which it was eventually used.

The Sherman? Looking at the range of models over it's period of service in WW2, it lacked the "hard" combat power that translates well into tables (and computer games). Armor thickness, gun calibre, etc. But as others have said, it was designed for mobility, and the ability to be deployed and sustained on the other side of the planet. It's design prioritised ease of repair, crew escape, and the US could cram two in the space a larger tank would have taken up in a freighter.

It was easy to operate at full effectiveness, with a relatively roomy turret (and a radio as standard). The most important (and controversial) Sherman decision was to keep it in service right until the end of the war. It was mass produced in vast quantities (and at the same time the US was supplying Britain with much of it's equipment and the SU with most of it's trucks). The Allies won with the Sherman's good qualities, and it's bad aspects were not enough to prevent success. It was good enough for the job. And I would argue that it was more than good enough for the job.

The T34? A fantastic tank when it was first put into service. It was badly let down by doctrine, but then so was any early war tank (that wasn't German).

Again, deliberate design choices meant that it was unreliable, cramped and hard to escape from. And famously most had no radio when it entered service. This reduced it's effectiveness. It was supplemented, but never entirely replaced, in SU service. And in the end, the Allies won. It was good enough.

It's features suited both the SU's situation, and method of combat. Unlike the US, the SU was in a desperate struggle for survival. Lesser design focus on crew survival and efficiency was understandable. Their tanks did not have to be shipped across an ocean. The Americans heavily supported the increased logistical chain an unreliable tank required. And Soviet tanks of whatever design did tend to be consumed more rapidly in vast battles of attrition, so a relatively low build quality was an effective choice, especially with an industrial base that was rapidly built up pre-war, and had to be shifted to avoid the German offensive. The T-34 suited the situation and choices the SU made. It was a good tank.

I would argue that although anyone could have made a better-constructed tank, the SU would have had to sacrifice more to do so. Their industry was not suited for high build quality. And SU doctrine would have lost thousands of tanks regardless of their design quality. They needed numbers to support their doctrine.

German tanks? The Panther in particular. They were used effectively. German doctrine compensated for the relative weak areas of their early tank designs. When faced with heavier-armored opponents, they could out-maneuver them. And their tanks were mobile to fit this doctrine.

A focus on quality suited a country that would be out-numbered and run short on fuel. They needed to maximise their combat effectiveness and minimise their logistical needs. And it matched (as the above examples also did, naturally), the nature of their industrial base, which was long-established and focused on quality.

However, their critical limitation was not the design, but the industry choices that limited their use. Assuming the war would be over quickly, not preparing for the logistics of supporting winter warfare in the SU, not mobilising their populace and industry early, and arguably not gearing itself for mass production effectively enough. These were choices that limited the production, and thus success, of German tanks during the critical years. But perhaps these were logical choices for a totalitarian regime that was reluctant to press it's people too hard. Overall I would argue that German tanks were amazing machines, and fit for purpose, but they didn't make as many as they should and could have during the critical years.

Which was the best? Personally I would vote for the T-34. It was not a fantastically-crafted or elegant machine. It had some really severe design compromises. But it got the job done. And it would have done even better with better doctrine (although perhaps this would also have exposed it's design compromises more).

But I accept that your own personal pick for best tank depends entirely on how you personally define "best".
 
Last edited:
  • 6
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Denkt

Left the forums permamently
42 Badges
May 28, 2010
15.763
6.369
You build the tank you need not the tank others need.

Even something like Stridsvagn m/42 can be said to be the best tank because there is just so many factors to take account for.
 
  • 5
Reactions:

Intrepid42

Corporal
80 Badges
Apr 10, 2011
26
45
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
If the T-34 was so awesome, why did all the Shermans go the the Guard Tank Divisions?

I would argue that the Sherman was probably a more effective weapon of war (if you include it's ability to actually turn up to the battlefield) 1v1 than an equivalent year T-34, if supported by US-built spare parts and US-built trucks. But a SU-built Sherman with purely SU-built spares and logistics chain probably would not have been. I personally rate the T-34 highly because of it's fitness for purpose.
 
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:

Vukodav

Major
3 Badges
Jun 21, 2011
530
1.153
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Well, I do not know why are people even discussing this.

Some even mix the class of tanks - naming event Tigers in this discussion. And Panther was by some standards heavy (Allies), while by others medium tank. It is like comparing P-51 and Ju-87.

And it is not only about the machine but about the men inside and behind it. In 1941 Soviet logistics system for refuel, rearm and reinforce mechanized divisions was bad to that extent that after a battle most of them were rendered ineffective. But as the war went on, that changed. A good machine with bad team and bad logistics is bad, but bad machine with trained people inside and good system behind it can do miracles.

For instance, Panther had a lot of engine troubles... but in a system where crew knows how to fix it and have ample amount of spare parts - those shortcomings can be ironed out. The same thing happened in Soviet Union - in early war T-34 and KV-1 were left on the battlefield after mechanical problems. But then Soviets started training crews in the factories from the start - they learned every screw of the tanks. All that goes into the performance of a machine.

Designing a tank was not that hard when you had experience in battle (that is why Soviets and Germans were well ahead of Allies in tank design), so sure that late war tanks were better than early war ones. Even T-34 had variants that were a lot different in 1941 and 1944.

I think that as far as tank design goes (not going into industry capacity, logistics system, crew and all other things), I think that Panther was the best design. Had a lot of problems, but a functioning, supplied, maintained Panther in tank-to-tank battle (without air component and other things - just tank-to-tank battle) could take on any tank of the war with very good chances of victory. That is just my thought on the subject.

But discussing a tank performance must take into account people, logistics, tactics, other parts of the army, industrial capacity and many other things. When you do a test like this, you notice that there are way to many variables to just say that one tank was better or the best. So I find it pointless to discuss this in such a broad terms. Define everything first (class, national doctrine and capabilities and so on), then go on and discuss a specific tanks in a specific role, specific time frame. Otherwise, you just waste your time as no one will come out smarter, only agitated.
 
  • 4
Reactions:

scroggin

Lt. General
20 Badges
Jul 13, 2010
1.685
717
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Best tank 1v1? Most "combat effectiveness" per ton? Or unit cost?

Do we factor in the country's ability to actually produce it? For example, some tanks were quite competent, but were produced late, and in small numbers.

Do we adjust for the ability to actually get to the battlefield in the first place? WW2 tanks were notorious for breaking down on the way to battle (or at any other time), requiring heavy tank transporters, or being hard to repair in the field.

Regardless, it's fun to debate.

My personal view of the effectiveness of a tank, or any other piece of machinery, is it's fitness for the purpose for which it was eventually used.

The Sherman? Looking at the range of models over it's period of service in WW2, it lacked the "hard" combat power that translates well into tables (and computer games). Armor thickness, gun calibre, etc. But as others have said, it was designed for mobility, and the ability to be deployed and sustained on the other side of the planet. It's design prioritised ease of repair, crew escape, and the US could cram two in the space a larger tank would have taken up in a freighter.

It was easy to operate at full effectiveness, with a relatively roomy turret (and a radio as standard). The most important (and controversial) Sherman decision was to keep it in service right until the end of the war. It was mass produced in vast quantities (and at the same time the US was supplying Britain with much of it's equipment and the SU with most of it's trucks). The Allies won with the Sherman's good qualities, and it's bad aspects were not enough to prevent success. It was good enough for the job. And I would argue that it was more than good enough for the job.

The T34? A fantastic tank when it was first put into service. It was badly let down by doctrine, but then so was any early war tank (that wasn't German).

Again, deliberate design choices meant that it was unreliable, cramped and hard to escape from. And famously most had no radio when it entered service. This reduced it's effectiveness. It was supplemented, but never entirely replaced, in SU service. And in the end, the Allies won. It was good enough.

And it's features suited both the SU's situation, and method of combat. Unlike the US, the SU was in a desperate struggle for survival. Lesser design focus on crew survival and efficiency was understandable. Their tanks did not have to be shipped across an ocean. The Americans heavily supported the increased logistical chain an unreliable tank required. And Soviet tanks of whatever design did tend to be consumed more rapidly in vast battles of attrition, so a relatively low build quality was an effective choice, especially with an industrial base that was rapidly built up pre-war, and had to be shifted to avoid the German offensive. The T-34 suited the situation and choices the SU made. It was a good tank.

I would argue that although anyone could have made a better-constructed tank, the SU would have had to sacrifice more to do so. Their industry was not suited for high build quality. And SU doctrine would have lost thousands of tanks regardless of their design quality. They needed numbers to support their doctrine.

German tanks? The Panther in particular. They were used effectively. German doctrine made up for a lot of the weakness in their tank designs. When faced with heavier-armored opponents, they could out-maneuver them. And their tanks were mobile to fit this doctrine.

A focus on quality suited a country that would be out-numbered and run short on fuel. They needed to maximise their combat effectiveness and minimise their logistical needs. And it matched (as the above examples also did, naturally), the nature of their industrial base, which was long-established and focused on quality.

However, their critical limitation was not the design, but the industry choices that limited their use. Assuming the war would be over quickly, not preparing for the logistics of supporting winter warfare in the SU, not mobilising their populace and industry early, and arguably not gearing itself for mass production effectively enough. These were choices that limited the production, and thus success, of German tanks during the critical years. But perhaps these were logical choices for a totalitarian regime that was reluctant to press it's people too hard. Overall I would argue that German tanks were amazing machines, and fit for purpose, but they didn't make as many as they should and could have during the critical years.

Which was the best? Personally I would vote for the T-34. It was not a fantastically-crafted or elegant machine. It had some really severe design compromises. But it got the job done. And it would have done even better with better doctrine (although perhaps this would also have exposed it's design compromises more).

But I accept that your own personal pick for best tank depends entirely on how you personally define "best".

Thats a very good summary of WWII tank design.

One of the issues that the germans had was a lack of alloying metals to make good armour. Late in the war a lot of their armour was brittle and prone to cracking, especially on the welds. Producing larger numbers of tanks would have made this problem worse. They would have needed to dilute their alloying metals even more.
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Yes there were lots of techniques to cope with the problem. But they all relied on knowing the enemy was there. That mean careful scouting of cover and slower breakthroughs or heavy losses if you made a mistake.

This is not world of tanks. Tanks don't engage each other in 15 vs. 15 tank duels.

You are arguing that combined arms existed to 'make up for' a 'problem' with the M4.

This is absolutely and unequivocally ludicrous.

The M4 tank was designed to work with combined arms.

You are arguing that this is a problem with the design of the tank when it was intended to function this way.

You are inventing a problem where none exists in order to prop up the mechanically unreliable and over engineered German vehicles you seem to be a fan of.


There is a reason that air reconnaissance, infantry-armor cooperation doctrines and recon platoons were developed.

Exactly.

Besides, it may surprise some, but tanks are not supposed to fight tanks.

That is not exactly true. Tanks were intended to fight tanks, but that was a secondary mission that was part of their larger mission of supporting the Infantry against fortified positions and creating breakthroughs to explot and flank enemy forces.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
Reactions:

Wimpola

Iron Thumb
56 Badges
Dec 21, 2014
411
268
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
I think everyone knows the T-34, at an individual basis, was most certainly not a good tank. But it filled the role the Soviets needed and thus helped them immensely with their victory.
The T-34 was a revolutionary tank design. It was one of the first of its kind with sloped armor. The tank towards the end wasn't as good as it was at the beginning due to Tigers and Panthers which were far superior but it was a great tank that the Germans nicknamed "The Ghost" because they couldn't kill it.
 

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
View attachment 162271

The 76 mm had a muzzle velocity of 2600ft/sec
The 75mm L70 was 3070 ft/sec......not comparable at all.

Your understanding of what the word 'comparable' means is questionable.

This example demonstrates you are clearly biased and engaging in questionable argumentation.

The 76mm M1 had a muzzle velocity of 3400FT/sec when firing the M93 HVAP.
It has 2600FT/sec when firing the M62 APC and M79 AP rounds.

The 76 M1's projectiles were also heavier than the projectiles from the 75 L/70.


With the panthers thicker armour and better slope the 76mm sherman could penetrate the glacis plate of a panther at 250m. The panther could penetrate a shermans glacis plate at 3000m and could hit it at ranges of around 1500m.

You seem to only understand military tactics at the level of the history channel.

1) 1500m and 3000m are not real combat distances. Combat between tanks overwhelmingly occurred bellow 1000m.

2) The Panther would have great difficulty hitting let alone penetrating the Sherman frontally at that distance.

3) You said: "the 76mm sherman could penetrate the glacis plate of a panther at 250m"; yeah, they could. But they could penetrate the armour further away too.

4) The 76 could also penetrate the Panther from the sides at those ranges, and if the gun was firing at those ranges, it would penetrate the 80mm frontal upper glacis on the Panther anyway, because at the angle it would be hitting the armour, the armour would not be slopped.


Big problem!!! The thiner armour of the sherman gave similar problems with anti-tank guns too.

The Panthers and Tigers had the same problem. You are pretending this only applies to the M4.


The sherman was a great tank in 1942 but it was difficult to win using it in 1944.

You are simply wrong.
 
  • 7
  • 6
Reactions:

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
The T-34 was a revolutionary tank design. It was one of the first of its kind with sloped armor. The tank towards the end wasn't as good as it was at the beginning due to Tigers and Panthers which were far superior but it was a great tank that the Germans nicknamed "The Ghost" because they couldn't kill it.

The T34 was a very simplistic design; it had no radio, no organized ammo storage, terrible ergonomics for the crew, and 2-man turret (later upgraded to 3-man with the T34/85mm).

The Germans only had issues fighting T34 when they were using 50mm Panzer IIIs and 20mm Panzer IIs.

The sloped armour on the T-34 was not revolutionary. Numerous tanks were already using slopped armour.

The Germans had not used steep sloping for reasons having nothing to do with their ability to do so.

The Germans had real issues with the KV-1; that was the tank that stalled them out.
 
  • 5
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
I would argue that the Sherman was probably a more effective weapon of war (if you include it's ability to actually turn up to the battlefield) 1v1 than an equivalent year T-34, if supported by US-built spare parts and US-built trucks. But a SU-built Sherman with purely SU-built spares and logistics chain probably would not have been. I personally rate the T-34 highly because of it's fitness for purpose.

I would ask what you mean by Soviet built Sherman. Is this a Soviet built Sherman that like the T-34 has ruthless planned obsolescence and cuts costs where ever possible? Or is this a T-34 that is built to the highest possible quality control that the Soviet Union could provide?

A Soviet built M4 would still have some of the advantages and disadvantages, spacious crew compartment but narrow track. It probably couldn't have it's costs cut to the bone as well as the T-34 could. A high quality control T-34 still isn't going to overcome things like cramped turret or inability to seat a tall driver but could solve problems like short automotive service life and the extreme strength of putting it into higher gears. So I guess the T-34 was well fit to soviet manufacturing. But there were also issues where the soviets could have built a better design, such as planning for a larger turret from the get go.

The sloped armour on the T-34 was not revolutionary. Numerous tanks were already using slopped armour.

Such as this one from 1917. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_FT
 
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Status
Not open for further replies.