By who? How could Hartman shoot down 9 Yaks in one fight, when only 8 were present anywhere near the place?
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Interesring link about T-34 - NOT the best tank in the war?
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Hopefully Russia & NATO won't ever be stupid enough to actually go to total war (and this scenario is total war), coz it will be nukes falling all around....
Otherwise i agree that on one hand we have the German propaganda trying to show super-soldiers, and on the other we have the USSR trying to obfuscate data (for a reason imo)
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Because the vast majority were verified.
How do you know there were 8 and not 8 Yaks ?
Lol, I highly doubt Russia can get past Ukraine, Poland and Romania, never mind anyone else.
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[insert pic of someone laughing very hard here]
The fantasy "kill verification" system existed only to formalise they myth-making the Germans were engaged in. Every single major engagement, from the battle of Britain all the vay through to 1945, German kill claims significantly exceeded those actually lost by the allies or Soviets. In some cases, kill claims exceeded the actual aircraft present. All warring parties were to some extent guilty of this, but the German command took this to completely ludicrous levels.
For a very very basic overview, look up the wiki
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Soviet reports. Or are you saying, that soviet commanders would send reports, saying they had LESS personnel and equipment, then in reality? I can understand saying they had MORE - to hide the losses (like the Germans), but LESS?
Ukraine cannot overcome separatists in Lugansk and Donetsk, who at most, had support of few hundred volunteers and supplies from Russia.
Poland and Romania simply don't have the equipment and training to withstand the onslaught.
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A commander under-reporting his strength will be at a higher priority for reinforcements, yes? There's a reason right there why they would under-report (not commenting on the rest of it, but there's a very plausible reason why someone would under-report).
"Volunteers" lol
[citation needed]
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Infantry commander - maybe. There is a ton of them, and their losses are harder to count. An aviation unit? A lot harder to conceal the losses. Don't forget the NKVD representatives, who were present at every regimental command. If a commander sends false reports, he will be arrested for treason, and the NKVD rep will get bonuses for arresting a "traitor".
Frankly, I believe the friends who actually fought there, hailing from the region, and volunteers both. Eye witnesses, you know. Since no one was able to prove involvement (satellites looking from above anyone?) such allegations are meant for people, who believe anything said to them by "independent media".
Polish army:
65,000 active duty personnel, 900 tanks, 1500 IFV, 150 helicopters.
Romanian army:
75,000 personnel, 1098 tanks, 1535 IFVs.
Russian army:
771,000 active duty personnel, 10,000 tanks.
Less than 20% of Russia's armed forces compromise more, then Romanian and Polish put together. Add in bigger experience, better air force...
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According to what NATO generals? That has to be the dumbest thing I have read in a while, the Russians can barely launch a cruise missile accurately let alone conquer Europe in short order. They have been fighting in Ukraine for how long now?
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"A spokesman for the US Department of Defense stated that there was "no question" as to Russia's involvement in the attacks on Ukrainian Armed Forces. On 28 July it published satellite photos showing heavy artillery shelling Ukrainian positions from Russian territory."
"In late August, NATO released satellite images which it considered to be evidence of Russian operations inside Ukraine with sophisticated weaponry, and after the setbacks of Ukrainian forces by early September, it was evident Russia had sent soldiers and armor across the border and locals acknowledged the role of Putin and Russian soldiers in effecting a reversal of fortunes."
"The Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence estimated, based on "official statements and interrogation records of captured military men from these units, satellite surveillance data" as well as verified announcements from relatives and profiles in social networks, that over 30 Russian military units were taking part in the conflict in Ukraine. In total, over 8,000 soldiers had fought there at different moments."
"Amnesty International considers the war to be "an international armed conflict" and presented independent satellite photos analysis proving involvement of regular Russian army in the conflict."
-From the article you clearly didn't read.
That's some selective statistics you've got there.
You're talking about Russia, which still has a significant portion of its men and equipment woefully under-trained and ill-maintained, and an economy that can barely sustain itself in peacetime, vs. NATO. Which is:
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, the UK, and the US.
Who does Russia have? The CSTO: Russia, Armenia, Belarus (which cooperates with NATO anyways), Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan.
Have fun with that.
If these guys actually exist they're probably low level and want more funding so they make Russia seem like more of a threat.
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Well, believe what you want. WhenI read articles and saw press briefings from NATO and US spokesmen with references to social media (Facebook and the like) as proof, I laughed too hard.
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This thread has gone WAY off-topic, and there is increasing hostility and incivility evident. I'm closing it before we have to hand out infraction points.
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