Interesring link about T-34 - NOT the best tank in the war?

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fredgiblet

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You might be interested in lol-ing but I`m interested in knowing the exact data of how many tanks AND SPGs were lost so I can have the OVERALL image.

Have you considered the possibility that, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, trying to figure out which side is better based solely and entirely on losses is a pointless endeavour?

Maybe the question could be rephrased. Which tank would you rather be sitting in when the fecal matter hits the ventilation device?

The Sherman. They're on the winning side AND they're more comfortable than a T-34.
 
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Jongmaster

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Maybe the question could be rephrased. Which tank would you rather be sitting in when the fecal matter hits the ventilation device?
The Sherman (preferably the Jumbo), if I am going to potentially die, I might as well do it in comfort.
 

GermanPower

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It's alright, math is really hard for some people.

The link you provided listed american losses at ~10,000 tanks. The US produced about 88,000 tanks during WWII. 10/88 is not equal to 80%. It is in fact ~11%. Now follow me for a moment because this is where the math gets complicated. 11% is not in the range of 80%-85%.

Now for the soviet numbers we need to use something much more straightforward. It's called "reading comprehension". The link you provided lists: "destroyed or damaged of all causes". Notice the use of the word "damaged" right there. That is to indicate that the numbers aren't just for soviet tanks destroyed but also for soviet tanks that were not destroyed but suffered damage.
You comments always come off so dickish. lol. Maybe I'm just as bad. But you seem to be failing at some basic comprehensions also. Roughly 25 to 35% of the American tanks produced where given to her allies and the soviet union. So to use the number 88,000 as the range is false. Take off a d 32,000 or so. Leaves you with 56,000 or so. So then you can divide and magically you'll find Its not 11%. Its 17%. Sure yours is more accurate but it's still false. It's also misleading in the first place because the reality by 44 almost entirely the Sherman was used. Very few other tanks saw any action. A total of 18,000 M4 Sherman were issued to the US army&Marine core.(Knock off 1,000 for marines) The majority of US tank losses where infact those very issued Sherman. You can look for specifics but its the ball park of around 5,300. Leaving the Sherman with a loss rate of 31%. Which the M4 was the best tank the Allied had to offer, So I doubt other tanks faired any better. There's a lot more in there to look at..you could raise as high as 100% if you look at the amount deployed 4,000 by the US in Normandy..and a loss rate of 4,000. Meaning its a 100% loss rate and all the tanks had to be replaced. Its also important to note the vast and rapid number of losses taken in by only single years combat. Sherman had been produced since 42. That matters also.

SO anyway you slice your number is just as dishonest and bullshitty as 80%. Next time you are being condescending makes sure you know your numbers. There's a variety of ways to get a loss rate and there's no real solid answer. It depends on a lot of things. What you are counting and what not. But I'd say 11% loss rate is a lot more dishonest then 80%
 
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keynes2.0

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The Sherman (preferably the Jumbo), if I am going to potentially die, I might as well do it in comfort.

Jumbos were always lead tanks. The better answer is to be in the M36. That way the bastards in the Jumbo get shot at and you are held in reserve until the enemy is shot at. Not only do you have tons of armor but you probably wont get shot at in the first place!
 
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EleventhAvenue

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Maybe the question could be rephrased. Which tank would you rather be sitting in when the fecal matter hits the ventilation device?

If that's the question, then I conclude that the Swedish Strv m/41 was the best tank of the war. Stronk Czech (rivetted) tank design, and located many kilometers away from the fighting! Sure, 160 mm or whatever the KT has for front armour sounds strong, but take just one kilometer, and you're already at 1 000 000 mm! Really, at that point, KT or BT-7, it hardly matters in comparison. Not being at war also heavily increases survivability.

Maybe only tanks of nations at war counts? Then I would say the Norwegian L-120 tank. I know people say that the USSR focused on Quantity over Quality, and T-34 stronk blahblah but the L-120 can be considered nothing short of a complete revolution in operational and strategic thinking. Focusing on minimum possible quantity (1 unit) and minimum possible quality (a Swedish experimental tank with its armor replaced with iron plates for economic reasons, armed with one machine gun), but maximum possible crew survivability (the tank was considered so useless that it was left at the equipment depot when the regiment mobilized, thus it was never crewed in wartime, thus 100% wartime crew survivability).

But seriously though... armored recovery vehicles, that's something I would like. You still serve in the army, but behind the safety of your own lines. You are also going to spend your days fixing the awesome armoured legends of your nations, but not, you know, operating them and killing people while dying. I think I would really like that. I'm a peaceful sort of person.
I might not have taken your question seriously, but this is my honest conclusion. :D
 
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GermanPower

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If that's the question, then I conclude that the Swedish Strv m/41 was the best tank of the war. Stronk Czech (rivetted) tank design, and located many kilometers away from the fighting! Sure, 160 mm or whatever the KT has for front armour sounds strong, but take just one kilometer, and you're already at 1 000 000 mm! Really, at that point, KT or BT-7, it hardly matters in comparison. Not being at war also heavily increases survivability.

Maybe only tanks of nations at war counts? Then I would say the Norwegian L-120 tank. I know people say that the USSR focused on Quantity over Quality, and T-34 stronk blahblah but the L-120 can be considered nothing short of a complete revolution in operational and strategic thinking. Focusing on minimum possible quantity (1 unit) and minimum possible quality (a Swedish experimental tank with its armor replaced with iron plates for economic reasons, armed with one machine gun), but maximum possible crew survivability (the tank was considered so useless that it was left at the equipment depot when the regiment mobilized, thus it was never crewed in wartime, thus 100% wartime crew survivability).

But seriously though... armored recovery vehicles, that's something I would like. You still serve in the army, but behind the safety of your own lines. You are also going to spend your days fixing the awesome armoured legends of your nations, but not, you know, operating them and killing people while dying. I think I would really like that. I'm a peaceful sort of person.
I might not have taken your question seriously, but this is my honest conclusion. :D
The reality is. Just make sure you are in a German tank formation. Your biggest threat is running outta fuel, lol. Well I mean. As long as Geermany isn't horribly loosing the war.
 

hkrommel

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I wonder, compared to American tank crews, how much actual combat tank destroyer crews encountered.

IIRC (and it's been a long time since I've read anything on the subject) they encountered a fair bit of combat when tanks were spotted by reconnaissance, particularly if it was a bigger threat (a big cat, Jagdpanther, a platoon of Panthers), whereas "surprise" encounters were almost entirely had by tank crews, since they were the ones actually pushing the front in most cases. Shermans were more than capable of dealing with most threats on their own, so TDs were held in reserve a fair bit just in case.

Basically the American tank hunter doctrine was based on the fear that they would encounter more big cats than they did, but better to have and not need than to need and not have.

It was, though not without it's own problems, low rate of fire among them.

And that fuel consumption :eek:
 

Opanashc

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If we want to go by "best tank", why not look at number of tank crews that served in each respective tank, and their losses of the total? A broken transmission does not produce crew member casualties (unless broken in view/range of enemy or in the middle of river-bottom).
Or "bang for the buck" - whose tanks destroyed more equipment for every "unit of measure" spent to build one, on average?
Really, argument is about what is better - apple pie or vanilla ice cream.
 

hkrommel

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If we want to go by "best tank", why not look at number of tank crews that served in each respective tank, and their losses of the total? A broken transmission does not produce crew member casualties (unless broken in view/range of enemy or in the middle of river-bottom).
Or "bang for the buck" - whose tanks destroyed more equipment for every "unit of measure" spent to build one, on average?
Really, argument is about what is better - apple pie or vanilla ice cream.

I'm pretty sure someone went over crew survivability earlier in the thread. IIRC out of the various medium tanks the Sherman had on average 1 crew casualty per armor penetration (which makes sense due to it being much roomier than other comparable tanks).

But yeah, I agree, it all depends on what you look for in a tank. There's no real way to say what is obviously best.
 
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GermanPower

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I'm pretty sure someone went over crew survivability earlier in the thread. IIRC out of the various medium tanks the Sherman had on average 1 crew casualty per armor penetration (which makes sense due to it being much roomier than other comparable tanks).

But yeah, I agree, it all depends on what you look for in a tank. There's no real way to say what is obviously best.
I guess I disagree. To me its representative of the air war. Germany always punched above its weight. It outperformed practically every nation for what it had excluding in strategic warfare..which ironically is what got it to loose the war, lol. In a tactic sense the Germans excelled and they had the best armored leaders. I trust Heinz Gudierian over Patton, Zhukov, and Montgomery. The German issue in losses were primarily a Hitler issue. You can count millions of German troops lost because of Hitlers localized force orders, refusal to retreat at Stalingrad, Refusal to retreat a lot of times. The most Veteran and experienced of the German lost because Hitler wouldn't listen to his generals. Normandy is another example of him simply not listening. My point being is you had a mass of issues that centered around the leader..which matters. But the general tactic control of Germany was fantastic and strategically not that bad if they didn't have such a demagogue.
 
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I guess I disagree. To me its representative of the air war. Germany always punched above its weight. It outperformed practically every nation for what it had excluding in strategic warfare..which ironically is what got it to loose the war, lol. In a tactic sense the Germans excelled and they had the best armored leaders. I trust Heinz Gudierian over Patton, Zhukov, and Montgomery. The German issue in losses were primarily a Hitler issue. You can count millions of German troops lost because of Hitlers localized force orders, refusal to retreat at Stalingrad, Refusal to retreat a lot of times. The most Veteran and experienced of the German lost because Hitler wouldn't listen to his generals. Normandy is another example of him simply not listening. My point being is you had a mass of issues that centered around the leader..which matters. But the general tactic control of Germany was fantastic and strategically not that bad if they didn't have such a demagogue.

Indeed, it could be said that we didn't win the war, Hitler lost it. You can pile on a lot more things, declaring war on the US, delaying Barbarossa, even to the end, starting the Battle of the Bulge. Hitler was the biggest part of Germany's defeat.

It's worth noting though that not ALL of the other leaders were competent, for instance part of the reason they lacked strategic bombing ability is because the people in charge of getting bombers insisted on dive bombing ability...in a 4-engine heavy bomber. Needless to say that didn't go so well and was a major part of the difficulties getting a strat bomber setup.
 

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Indeed, it could be said that we didn't win the war, Hitler lost it. You can pile on a lot more things, declaring war on the US, delaying Barbarossa, even to the end, starting the Battle of the Bulge. Hitler was the biggest part of Germany's defeat.

It's worth noting though that not ALL of the other leaders were competent, for instance part of the reason they lacked strategic bombing ability is because the people in charge of getting bombers insisted on dive bombing ability...in a 4-engine heavy bomber. Needless to say that didn't go so well and was a major part of the difficulties getting a strat bomber setup.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

The odds was against Germany in the beginning, it got a little better with the fall of France but after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour in december 1941 it was just a matter of time...

It is all about numbers and Germany(Axis) did not just have enough manpower, resources and industries to compete with the USA(Allies) in a modern war.
 
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Shatterfury

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Your line about "dont blame the panther for it's problems because it's the fault of the industry" was directed at me, dont you remember?

And if you'd bothered to read the thread you would see that I posted in this thread before you did, back on page 3...
Don`t use quotes because that is not what I said, by a long shot.
Every tank has reliability problems American and Soviet tanks included, reliability problems aren`t a German thing only.

What I said is that we need to take into consideration that Panthers were rushed into production without being fully tested and on top of this the Germans used forced labour to build their tanks and there are documented sabotages.

If you want to say what tank is the best, design wise, than you need to filter those things out because those aren`t problem regarding the tank itself rather of political decisions to rush the tank and use a disloyal workforce.

In other words would the Panther`s reliability be that different from your average tank if it was made under the same conditions as an Sherman ?

Post war tests show that isn`t an ok tank in that regard, so if the Panther would be fielded by a country that can take care of it like say, the Sherman, it is a good tank reliability-wise or you think those tests are wrong ?


I am not surprised that you know about that battle, it was the most proeminent that came into my head at the moment, all others that I thought aren`t simple tank to tank battles and involve a coordination with infantry, artillery or/and air force.
And the Soviets and Allies are above such things as boasting and exaggeration ?
 
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Don`t use quotes because that is not what I said, by a long shot.
Every tank has reliability problems American and Soviet tanks included, reliability problems aren`t a German thing only.

What I said is that we need to take into consideration that Panthers were rushed into production without being fully tested and on top of this the Germans used forced labour to build their tanks and there are documented sabotages.

If you want to say what tank is the best, design wise, than you need to filter those things out because those aren`t problem regarding the tank itself rather of political decisions to rush the tank and use a disloyal workforce.

In other words would the Panther`s reliability be that different from your average tank if it was made under the same conditions as an Sherman ?

Post war tests show that isn`t an ok tank in that regard, so if the Panther would be fielded by a country that can take care of it like say, the Sherman, it is a good tank reliability-wise or you think those tests are wrong ?


I am not surprised that you know about that battle, it was the most proeminent that came into my head at the moment, all others that I thought aren`t simple tank to tank battles and involve a coordination with infantry, artillery or/and air force.
And the Soviets and Allies are above such things as boasting and exaggeration ?
It was common practice among both side to censor actual losses. No one told it like it was. In fact people in the US went to jail for daring to speak out against the war. The T-34 in 41 was quite useless because of its reliability problems. But the Soviets fixed the problem with good modification and updating of the tank.
 
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CHRIS3169

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Pretty interesting about how explosive it was. All the more ironic that Stalin complained about American Lend Lease tanks exploding in his correspondence with Roosevelt(page 30). I'll link the correspondence below, they're pretty interesting. They read pretty much like you'd imagine...

Stalin: "2nd front, 2nd front, you promise 2nd front, send more stuff, lemme get sum of dem der flying fortresses. P.S. 2ND FRONT! HITLERISM! P.P.S. please send 200 tins of Dictator's Choice brand mustache wax for ummm...the soldiers"

https://books.google.com/books?id=C...cover#v=snippet&q=High grade gasoline&f=false
 

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Pretty interesting about how explosive it was. All the more ironic that Stalin complained about American Lend Lease tanks exploding in his correspondence with Roosevelt(page 30). I'll link the correspondence below, they're pretty interesting. They read pretty much like you'd imagine...

Stalin: "2nd front, 2nd front, you promise 2nd front, send more stuff, lemme get sum of dem der flying fortresses. P.S. 2ND FRONT! HITLERISM! P.P.S. please send 200 tins of Dictator's Choice brand mustache wax for ummm...the soldiers"

https://books.google.com/books?id=Cu6mqGHKFwcC&printsec=frontcover#v=snippet&q=High grade gasoline&f=false
10 billion in aid. And still complaining, lmfao. Oh soviet. You so silly. That's what 100 billion? 300 billion in today money? AND those numbers are production cost. Not buying cost if I recall.
 
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