Interesring link about T-34 - NOT the best tank in the war?

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Cute, very cute but the cost includes labour costs as well.
If you want to go a bit deeper into it you might as well assume that USA or USSR could have shaved around 25% off if not more off that cost of the Panther given their immense material advantage if they built the Panther themselves thus a T-34 being 45% cheaper would be invalid.
It was Germany`s lack of resources who kept the tank expansive not the tank design itself.

Oh, the design itself mattered. The Panther, just like the Tiger, was an over-engineered mess that was in no way suited to the kind of mass production that produced the T-34 or M4. The complicated design and the many novel design solutions meant that the Panther took far longer to make (and in extension cost more) then it would have had the design aimed for simplicity and ease of production.

So no, the Panther was not a disaster, Tiger II was.

One does not exclude the other. The Panther was a disaster as it was too complex to be the main medium tank of the German forces and took too long to produce and to service. The Tiger II was a mess for different reasons. Whether or nor the Panther was a god tank otherwise, it was not a good tank for the situation Germany was in.

Production numbers speak for themselves 4 v 1.
Is that the actual ratio for tanks lost ? I don`t know for sure but given production pattern of USA and USSR it`s easy to conclude that it`s close.

You can't be serious with this logic. Production numbers do not equate to losses. Producing more then necessary is a common thing in wartime, as you simply can not have too much equipment, no matter if we are talking about tanks, uniforms, rations or ammunition. More importantly, both the USA and USSR ended the war with thousands, if not tens of thousands, of tanks in service. Both nations would go on to sell these tanks cheaply to their allies, which is why India, Pakistan, Israel etc. all used Sherman tanks for a long time and why the entire Eastern Bloc (and China and North Korea) used the T-34/85 all the way into the 80's. This simple fact alone means your logic of extrapolating losses from production numbers is wrong, since that would mean that neither the USSR or USA would have any tanks left at war's end, especially not in sufficient numbers to then saturate the second hand market for tanks with their surplus WW2 equipment for decades afterwards.

To try to say that USSR and USA would each have almost 20.000 tank in their inventory by end of 1944 and continue to build thousands more in 1945 is just mindblowing. That is want a 2 vs 1 loss would mean for USA and USSR.

So the only economically sane conclusion was that the loss ratios were closer to 4 vs 1.

No. The reason why you keep making loads of tanks in 1945 is that the war was won in May 1945 in Europe and September 1945 in Asia. The people who decided on tank production could not say when the war would end or how much fight was left in the enemy, so they kept making tanks as if the war would go on "forever", since winding down production too early would mean that your forces could potentially be left without replacement tanks, food, ammunition and all those other things you decided you didn't need so many off when the war would be won "soon". It is well worth noting that as soon as Germany was defeated all the Allies, both east and west, begun winding down their wartime production significantly, because that was the first time when it was safe to do so from a military standpoint.

Your idea of an economically sane conclusion requires the planners to have knowledge of when the war would end. Information that they, obviously, didn't have.
 
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fredgiblet

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Additionally I'll point out again that the Soviets and western allies were NOT friends, so even with the war against Germany ending there was a chance that WW2 would have continued. That's a war you DON'T want to fight low on armor.
 
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D Inqu

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Cute, very cute but the cost includes labour costs as well.
Not at all.
I could make a smug reply but the moderators will unleash political correctness in the thread instead I will encourage you to check page number two and be amased by an economic chart with the costs of the tank.
The Panther was only 30% more expansive that a Panzer IV.
And this why people should be careful when reading magic numbers, which are possible to spin into anything. Panther was almost double double the weight of Panzer IV. Irrespective of the magic RM costs, the Panther could physically not be less than double the cost of of the Panzer IV. In reality, the cost was made even worse because design flaws which made keeping them operational (this a big thing, if you your vehicles to be usable) nightmare. Namely the low life (initally disastrously low life) of the final drive, very work intensive maintenance (interleaved) and so on...
Oh, I don`t know...maybe because you start having a bloated inventory and don`t have where to storage those tanks ?
there is no such thing as "too many tanks", when you are at a major war.
Like it or not economically speaking, it`s retarded to continue producing 4 times your enemy if you lose under 2 tanks per 1 tank built by Germany so you start upgrading those you already have to a better variant.
Economically speaking, factories do not have magic switches to instantly switch to another model.
But why doen`t USSR and USA upgrade the tens of thousands of T-34s and M4s to better variants rather then built new variants from scratch ???
Because the T-34-85 and Shermar were the best tanks for the war. The Soviets had the T-44, which they kept in training units until the end in the war. Precisely because they did not want it to become a disaster like the Panther.
Maybe because those were knocked off and were rusting on the battlefield ?
no.
To try to say that USSR and USA would each have almost 20.000 tank in their inventory by end of 1944 and continue to build thousands more in 1945 is just mindblowing.That is want a 2 vs 1 loss would mean for USA and USSR.
Yes, that was the reality. Well done! Of the 54k Shermans produced in the war, 20.5k were issued to US armed forces (some still on US soil) and 22k sent to various allies. The rest were sitting in the inventory.
 
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Saint Gwynllyw

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Indeed. Skip the Wunderwaffen, skip the heavy tanks and just crank out tons and tons of Panzer 4s and slightly downarmored Panthers which won't kill their final drives every 5 minutes. The Germans might possibly have won the war if their leadership was competent.


In regards to HOI, how do you replicate this as the german player? Because as your upgrade your medium armour through research- the IV's become V's. I would like to try to spam produce IIIs and IV's to see if this strategy would have worked.

In regards to real life- alot of the desire to produce stupid heavy tanks was because of the initial experience the wehrmacht had against the Kv-1s and especially Kv-2s.
50mm cannon shells literally bounced off the Kv-2. I read a report of a Kv-2 being broken down and under heavy fire from around 20 Panzer IIIs and the Germans literally could not destroy it. They ceased wasting ammo and the Soviet tank crew climbed out and ran off. Irrespective of how effective as an offensive weapon the Kv class were, they certainly had an immense demoralising effect on the Panzer crews.
 
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3ishop

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Well, T34-76 had a cost of 31.000 per units.
M4 and Panzer IV had a cost of 46.000 per unit.
Panther had a cost of 60.000 per unit.
All according to the chart on page 2.

So economically T-34 was cheap like hell.
To be honest I know that USA also gave USSR huge amounts of steep, tools etc. and that might have helped USSR in cutting the price of the tank but given Soviet cheapness those costs might be correctly factored in and this be the real price.
Didn't the Soviets pay for a lot of their kit with gold (I think it's mainly the gold they got from Spain but still) so I wonder if that is counted...also does the chart count the maintence, repair and transport costs? I know the Germans used unskilled and unhappy workers to reduce the production cost but led to issues of poor work and sabotage.

In regards to HOI, how do you replicate this as the german player? Because as your upgrade your medium armour through research- the IV's become V's. I would like to try to spam produce IIIs and IV's to see if this strategy would have worked.
HoI4 you will research a tank and then set up a production line for it, you can then make modifications of 4 stats. So you could upgrade it's gun, armour and engine and keep producing it.
 

Shatterfury

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keynes2.0

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It's alright, math is really hard for some people.

The link you provided listed american losses at ~10,000 tanks. The US produced about 88,000 tanks during WWII. 10/88 is not equal to 80%. It is in fact ~11%. Now follow me for a moment because this is where the math gets complicated. 11% is not in the range of 80%-85%.

Now for the soviet numbers we need to use something much more straightforward. It's called "reading comprehension". The link you provided lists: "destroyed or damaged of all causes". Notice the use of the word "damaged" right there. That is to indicate that the numbers aren't just for soviet tanks destroyed but also for soviet tanks that were not destroyed but suffered damage.
 
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Denkt

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Germany lost 100% of the stuff they produced as well as their whole army because they lost the war.

Neither USSR or Western allies lost much because they controlled the battlefield so damaged stuff could be repaired and destroyed stuff could be melted down to new stuff not talk about all stuff they captured.
 
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Murmeldjuret

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I wish I could find it, but I've read some accounts from tank crews that talk about how scared they were of AT guns and infantry when they were on the attack. It's really telling that some of them were measuring their skill, not in tank kills, but in noticing and neutralizing AT guns.

I think the documentary about Wittman called him the best tank captain because he knew where the AT nests were.
 

Shatterfury

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It's alright, math is really hard for some people.

The link you provided listed american losses at ~10,000 tanks. The US produced about 88,000 tanks during WWII. 10/88 is not equal to 80%. It is in fact ~11%. Now follow me for a moment because this is where the math gets complicated. 11% is not in the range of 80%-85%.

Now for the soviet numbers we need to use something much more straightforward. It's called "reading comprehension". The link you provided lists: "destroyed or damaged of all causes". Notice the use of the word "damaged" right there. That is to indicate that the numbers aren't just for soviet tanks destroyed but also for soviet tanks that were not destroyed but suffered damage.
Yes, USA lost 10.000 tanks between 6 june 1944 and may 1945.
If you check Soviet losses you will find thousands of American and British listed there as well.

You are right indeed, the Allies lost far fewer tanks, I mixed up Allied tanks lost that were used by USSR with Allied tanks lost by the Allies themselves.

Tank to tank losses is indeed 1 to 4,4 but I see that SPGs aren`t factored in.

Gah, I can`t find the inventory of the German army when it surrendered.
 
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keynes2.0

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Tank to tank losses is indeed 1 to 4,4 but I see that SPGs aren`t factored in.

Ah, so after the number you cited proved to be hilariously wrong, you invent a new number without citation. Smart move. Now you just need to wait five or six posts and claim victory.

A lot like a German panzer general when you get to it... just retreat 50 miles and claim victory.
 
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Shatterfury

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Ah, so after the number you cited proved to be hilariously wrong, you invent a new number without citation. Smart move. Now you just need to wait five or six posts and claim victory.

A lot like a German panzer general when you get to it... just retreat 50 miles and claim victory.
Uowww keep your smart remarks to yourself.

You might be interested in lol-ing but I`m interested in knowing the exact data of how many tanks AND SPGs were lost so I can have the OVERALL image.

Are you satisfied with the 1 : 4,4 as an overall number without counting the tens of thousands of SPGs ?

I averaged a bit high but USSR lost 73,3% of it`s entire inventory - around 96.500 tanks and SPGs.


I`m kind of disappointed in you, I figured you for a bit more mature than this to be honest.
 

keynes2.0

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Are you satisfied with the 1 : 4,4 as an overall number without counting the tens of thousands of SPGs ?

And are you actually going to put that number in the proper context which people have repeatedly pointed out to you? The side with the most tanks lost the most tanks because the overwhelming majority of losses were to mechanical failures, artillery and landmines?

I doubt it, it's about 6 posts later so it's time for you to claim victory. My money is on "well you all wont listen".
 
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Shatterfury

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And are you actually going to put that number in the proper context which people have repeatedly pointed out to you? The side with the most tanks lost the most tanks because the overwhelming majority of losses were to mechanical failures, artillery and landmines?

I doubt it, it's about 6 posts later so it's time for you to claim victory. My money is on "well you all wont listen".
All sides had mechanical failures or had their tanks knocked out by artillery and landmines.

You just burst into the thread without checking a bit behind ? People didn`t want to analyze the tanks without taking into account industrial might so the whole debate degenerated into industrial contest rather than the tanks themselves be it the Panther, T-34-76/85 or M4 Sherman.

Now if you want to analyze how the tanks did vs each other by drawing a conclusion from individual battles be my guest.
The only clear engagement, and the most iconic, is the Battles of Kursk, especially this localised part of the front.

But this is not enough for a conclusion.
 
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keynes2.0

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You just burst into the thread without checking a bit behind ? People didn`t want to analyze the tanks without taking into account industrial might so the whole debate degenerated into industrial contest rather than the tanks themselves be it the Panther, T-34-76/85 or M4 Sherman.

Your line about "dont blame the panther for it's problems because it's the fault of the industry" was directed at me, dont you remember?

And if you'd bothered to read the thread you would see that I posted in this thread before you did, back on page 3...

The only clear engagement, and the most iconic, is the Battles of Kursk, especially this localised part of the front.

Believe it or not I have heard of the most famous tank engagement of all time. And exactly the critiques that people made before apply there (in particular the parts about reliability with the panther). In addition I would like to point out that there is nothing "clear" about that battle seeing as historians often fail to agree on the numbers, conduct or even location of the battle. However it's a pretty good guess that the self-aggrandizing German claims aren't factually accurate. This is because where we do have good records to check the German claims against (mostly on the western front) the German AARs uniformly turn out to be massive exaggerations.
 
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3ishop

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All sides had mechanical failures or had their tanks knocked out by artillery and landmines.
And different nations recorded their losses differently. Soviets counted break downs as a "loss" Germans didn't.
 
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