Interesring link about T-34 - NOT the best tank in the war?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
4:1 kill ratios are pure fiction. Any ratio more than 2:1 would mean that the Soviets, would run out of tanks in 1943. And the allies won every single major armor engagement against the Germans, even when the Germans had the numerical advantage.

From an economic point of view the Panther was a complete disaster. The most cost-effective German vehicle was the StuG III,

I muse over this a bit - now I'm no expert (so could be all wrong), and I haven't crunched the numbers, but the UK, USSR and the US built and deployed a lot of tanks against Germany - even at somewhere like Kursk, where the Soviets had a substantial edge numbers wise, and the Germans ran some of their better tanks over minefields at the start of the battle, the Germans made a pretty good job of attacking for a few days. Against the western Allies in France, my understanding is that the Allied material advantage was considerable, and yet on many occasions, it was anything but easy going. I think it's fair to say that, tank-for-tank, the Germans got more mileage out
of theirs than anyone they were fighting.

The problem is, of course, this doesn't (or even mostly) just come down to the tanks.
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Shatterfury

Lt. General
2 Badges
Jan 2, 2013
1.356
1.009
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
This whole discussion is silly for a simple reason.

The German vehicles might very well be superior dollar per dollar but what we need to understand is that they tried to achieve quality because they lacked the resources to go for mass.

What I`m trying to underline is that the Allies and Soviets might have had, let`s say for the sake of the example, access to 10 times more resources than the Germans so going for fast mass produced good vehicles IS the best use their abundant resources.

It doesn`t really matter that the Allies and Soviets spent double the money or maybe even lost 3 times more steel than the Germans in tank to tank battles, from an economic point of view both sides did the best given their resources.

The Germans were well known for quality, not to say others didn`t make merchandise of good quality, but lacked resources so it was natural to go quality.

The Allies and Soviets had much more resources so it`s natural for them to outproduce the Germans even if economically, money-wise and resource-wise, they were wasteful compared to the Germans.

So as far as tank to tank the Germans might come on top but they were forced by circumstances to go for quality while their adversaries didn`t have the same constraints.


On a side note, if USA entered the war earlier they might have gathered the expertise to make a tank to rival the Panther since USA was in no immediate danger but optimal use of abundant resources proved just as efficient.
 
Last edited:
  • 8
Reactions:

Gort11

Field Marshal
84 Badges
May 22, 2011
4.553
3.765
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Yet the tanks produced by USA and USSR were way over 4 times the tanks produced by Germany.

Even at a 2 for 1 the Panther is better because a Panther was 45% more expansive that means that a Panther is 10% cheaper than 2 T-34s.

2, 4 or 6 vs 1 it doesn`t matter, the German tanks are still more economically viable.

This "economically viable" stuff only works if you win or at least survive the war. The Germans got crushed and their country dismantled, so obviously their strategy wasn't economically viable.

But if the Allies and Soviets achieved rates under 2 vs 1 why did they produced like 4 or 5 times more tanks than the Germans ? For giggles ?

Because:

A: You don't know exactly how much stuff you need to win the war, so better to be on the safe side with too much rather than risk bringing too little
B: Having a huge military at the end of the war allows you to negotiate more effectively in the peace deal
C: Having massive material superiority means fewer of your guys get killed in the war
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

Shatterfury

Lt. General
2 Badges
Jan 2, 2013
1.356
1.009
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
This "economically viable" stuff only works if you win or at least survive the war. The Germans got crushed and their country dismantled, so obviously their strategy wasn't economically viable.
It doesn`t really matter that the German were two times more efficient tank wise, their enemies had around 4 or even 5 times more tanks than them.

Simply put it simply the Germans got zerged.

Just because they lost the war it doesn`t mean that somehow you get to ignore the economic reality of tank battles of WW2.

Very nice dodge there about production.
If they had under 2 vs 1 win rate USSR should have stopped production by the end of 1943 because they had over 30.000 T-34s, why did they produce and additional 25.000 ? To labour the field with them ?

Almost 16.000 T-34 produced in 1943 compared to 4.400 Panther and Panzer IV in 1943 for Germany.

Do you want me to add US and British production into the equation as well ?
 
Last edited:
  • 5
Reactions:

Denkt

Left the forums permamently
42 Badges
May 28, 2010
15.763
6.369
And the allies won every single major armor engagement against the Germans, even when the Germans had the numerical advantage.
At the time of the Sherman, how many major engament did the western allies lose to Germany, Im pretty sure it would be very few.

It more tells the situation the german army was at that time then which tank was better. Give the allies the Panther and give Germans the Sherman and Im sure you get the same result.

The allies had pretty much every advantage around 1944, and with careful generalship there was no chance they could lose the war or maybe not even a major engament.
 
Last edited:
  • 5
Reactions:

Murmeldjuret

01_COUP_PROPOSE
103 Badges
Dec 14, 2010
974
3.143
  • Victoria 2
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Magicka
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
At the time of the Sherman, how many major engament did the western allies lose to Germany, Im pretty sure it would be very few.
I think my favourite quote in the tank debate of WW2 is regarding Shermans.
Of the three larger engagements with Tigers on the western front, the shermans won one, the pershing lost the other, and the third one died without allied intervention.

Don't know if it is true, as I just look at macrohistory but it is kind of funny.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
Simply put it simply the Germans got zerged.

The strategy of "build crappy units in a rush and attack your opponents before they finish building" would perfectly describe what Germany did against Poland, France, the Soviets, etc.

The Germans were well known for quality, not to say others didn`t make merchandise of good quality, but lacked resources so it was natural to go quality.

No they weren't. This is you projecting stereotypes from 30 years later onto the past.
 
  • 6
  • 2
Reactions:

MarcoRossolini

Stavka Representative
71 Badges
May 29, 2013
553
7.279
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
The whole argument is kinda nonsense given that we're applying a precept of the "western" way of war (have the best stuff) to the Soviet Union, a state and a people that had never ever followed the "Western" way of war.

Being a T-34 nerd I have to comment that the lack of radio is exaggerated somewhat. People seem to think that no T-34s were fitted with radios. I have no hard figures but what I've read from veterans is that whilst many lacked radios, some did have them even at the worst times. The worst times being in 1941 when shortages were greatest and from then on more and more radios were fitted as they became available.
 
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Gort11

Field Marshal
84 Badges
May 22, 2011
4.553
3.765
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
It doesn`t really matter that the German were two times more efficient tank wise, their enemies had around 4 or even 5 times more tanks than them.

Simply put it simply the Germans got zerged.

Just because they lost the war it doesn`t mean that somehow you get to ignore the economic reality of tank battles of WW2.

Very nice dodge there about production.

Almost 16.000 T-34 produced in 1943 compared to 4.400 Panther and Panzer IV in 1943 for Germany.

Do you want me to add US and British production into the equation as well ?

I'm not really sure what you're arguing. Germany was outnumbered and outproduced, this is not in dispute. Having fewer tanks than your opposition doesn't mean you're "efficient", it means you didn't build enough tanks. Maybe don't follow policies that result in you being at war with every superpower on the planet?

If they had under 2 vs 1 win rate USSR should have stopped production by the end of 1943 because they had over 30.000 T-34s, why did they produce and additional 25.000 ? To labour the field with them ?

Everyone built as many tanks as possible, in order to win the war as quickly as possible. If Germany could have built twice as many tanks as they did, they would have done. Fortunately for the world, they simply didn't have the industry to do so.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Kovax

Banned
10 Badges
May 13, 2003
9.161
7.255
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
A radio was "standard equipment" in the T-34. Some tanks were produced and deployed without their radios due to shortages, but it's not because they weren't designed that way. More importantly, problems with the radios and lack of spare parts rendered the vast majority of them inoperative in short order, so the bulk of the tanks in the field were left with no functional radios, and had to maneuver based on signal flags or simplistic "follow the leader" tactics. Internal communications systems were no more reliable (or inaudible over the normal engine noises, in the rare event that they actually worked), so the tank commander usually had to deliver directions to the driver by means of foot taps on the shoulders. Take those crippling internal and external communications problems and add limited visibility and situational awareness to an already stressed and poorly trained tank commander's multiple roles when the shooting starts, and it's a recipe for disaster. In essence, the whole armored formation was often fighting all-but blind.

The T-34 was a radical tradeoff of strengths and weaknesses, with a few excellent features that made up for some of its serious flaws (big gun for its intro date, wide tracks, and sloped armor, versus cramped interior, 2-man turret, poor visibility, poor communications, unreliability). The combination proved effective enough for the Soviets' situation when deployed "en masse", at least after the catastrophic leadership and training issues were addressed, but I would not have wanted to be in one of those tanks in a combat situation. If that's a "great tank", I'll gladly take an average one instead.

Germany faced daunting materials shortages, so any military equipment designs had to account for the fact that certain materials would be in short supply. The Germans could NOT have built their own T-34s in any significant quantity, because the materials were simply unavailable. They could also not build anywhere near the sheer quantities that the Allies could crank out the door. The Panther was a compromise design based on what materials the Germans thought they would have available, and the design reduced the amount of rarer materials needed at the expense of adding more sheer mass of weaker metals, and more complexity. They were overly optimistic on availability, so additional corners had to be cut for later production. The result was an overweight and unreliable tank, because that was about the best that they could do under the dire circumstances. The Panther's own crew visibility was decent in comparison to that of the T-34, but no longer sufficient compared to developments on the Western Front. In hindsight, even more reliance on turretless designs (StuGs, PanzerJaegers, JagdPanzers, etc.) might have been better, which both Germany and the Soviets were utilizing in growing numbers, but that may not have been fully apparent or appreciated (especially by what's-his-face at the top) at the time. Sticking with the Panzer Kampfwagen IV design, which had already reached its limits for suspension loading and engine size, might have been semi-viable for another year or so, but like the T-34 after the first couple of years, it had already become "average at best" on the battlefield, and Germany couldn't afford to trade "even up" in casualties. Germany needed a "superweapon" to avoid or postpone inevitable defeat, and the Panther was the closest they could come to one, but it fell well short of the mark for a long list of reasons.

The Soviets could have, and eventually DID come up with a better design than the T-34, which was only considered an "interim" design in the first place. I don't think that Germany could have come up with a "great" tank in their situation, but the Panther could have been pretty close if the materials had been available to correct (or avoid in the first place) several of the most serious weaknesses (some of which had already been identified and addressed, but were never "fixed" because it was not feasible under the circumstances). The M4 Sherman is an example of what you can do with virtually unlimited resources, sufficient production capacity, and all of the engineering expertise that you care to throw at it, and it's still not a "great" tank, but a very good one with almost no specific weaknesses after the initial "trial and error" introductory phases. As pointed out, the value of a design depends heavily on the situation of the country that's using it, and what works for one may be poorly suited for another.
 
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:

NERFGEN

Colonel
33 Badges
Aug 22, 2006
822
16
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
once upon a time I had this discussion. My sig says what i think about the T34
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Loke

Colonel
29 Badges
Oct 30, 2000
1.161
360
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Diplomacy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
This tank outclasses any tank mentioned earlier... Although it came to late and to few produced ;) lol...
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.655
20.097
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
But if the Allies and Soviets achieved rates under 2 vs 1 why did they produced like 4 or 5 times more tanks than the Germans ? For giggles ?

Because tanks were not always the biggest killer of other tanks in WWII. AT guns, mechanical failures, bad driving conditions, and infantry in close combat were claiming a significant number of tank kills. This does not even address problems associated with air power.

In many cases, the goal of armored divisions wasn't to even be used against other armored divisions. You wanted to put the tip of the spear at weak points, not send your tanks against enemy tanks all the time. If you have the logistics to support it, you want plenty of armored forces that you can apply to the front in the right places to get your encirclements and whatnot. Building hordes of tanks that you can afford to supply and fuel is sensible even if you don't need to get 4:1 odds in any individual tank battle.

I wish I could find it, but I've read some accounts from tank crews that talk about how scared they were of AT guns and infantry when they were on the attack. It's really telling that some of them were measuring their skill, not in tank kills, but in noticing and neutralizing AT guns.
 
  • 7
Reactions:

hkrommel

Resident Contrarian
69 Badges
Feb 27, 2014
4.229
2.142
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
1. Yet the tanks produced by USA and USSR were way over 4 times the tanks produced by Germany.

2. Even at a 2 for 1 the Panther is better because a Panther was 45% more expansive that means that a Panther is 10% cheaper than 2 T-34s.

2, 4 or 6 vs 1 it doesn`t matter, the German tanks are still more economically viable.

3. But if the Allies and Soviets achieved rates under 2 vs 1 why did they produced like 4 or 5 times more tanks than the Germans ? For giggles ?

Numerous problems with this. (Numbers added so you know what I'm responding to).

1. Production ratios do not mean loss ratios. There were plenty of tanks left over after the war lol. Also the Soviets counted repaired tanks as produced, while nobody else did. That skews the numbers quite a bit. Screw up the transmission and need it replaced? Tank produced. An 88 round went through the turret but the chassis survived? Replace the turret, tank produced. Build a tank from scratch? Tank produced.

2. Not necessarily. Each individual tank was more expensive. Were they also individually more effective? In some cases, but the "worse" Allied tanks were easily capable of dealing with Panthers within normal combat ranges. Maybe the overall cost was cheaper but statistically it would have been better for Germany to produce the much cheaper Stugs.

3. Because this isn't World of Tanks. You always want to have material superiority. There's a common myth (mostly debunked, though you'll see it arise from time to time) that the US needed 5 Shermans for every German tank. This is the result of the US doctrine of sending a platoon (at the time it was 5 per platoon, now it's 4 IIRC) of tanks against every enemy sighted AFV when possible. Stug? Send a platoon. Tiger? Send a platoon. Panther? Send a platoon. That way it's an almost guaranteed kill. You may lose no tanks, or all of them, but the point is that you outnumber the enemy at every given opportunity. That ends up with more of their guys dead, and more of your guys alive.

A common misconception that is coming up along this thread is that tanks are being judged by their ability to kill tanks. The primary goals of tanks are infantry support and creating breakthroughs, not killing other tanks. That's the job of AT guns and tank destroyers. Tanks can and should be able to fight each other when necessary, but you can't judge the value of a tank solely on its anti-tank ability. That's a major problem the Panther had, it's ability to fire HE rounds effectively and thus support infantry was crap (for the same reasons its ability to fire AP rounds was great).
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

scroggin

Lt. General
20 Badges
Jul 13, 2010
1.685
717
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
This whole discussion is silly for a simple reason.

The German vehicles might very well be superior dollar per dollar but what we need to understand is that they tried to achieve quality because they lacked the resources to go for mass.

What I`m trying to underline is that the Allies and Soviets might have had, let`s say for the sake of the example, access to 10 times more resources than the Germans so going for fast mass produced good vehicles IS the best use their abundant resources.

It doesn`t really matter that the Allies and Soviets spent double the money or maybe even lost 3 times more steel than the Germans in tank to tank battles, from an economic point of view both sides did the best given their resources.

The Germans were well known for quality, not to say others didn`t make merchandise of good quality, but lacked resources so it was natural to go quality.

The Allies and Soviets had much more resources so it`s natural for them to outproduce the Germans even if economically, money-wise and resource-wise, they were wasteful compared to the Germans.

So as far as tank to tank the Germans might come on top but they were forced by circumstances to go for quality while their adversaries didn`t have the same constraints.


On a side note, if USA entered the war earlier they might have gathered the expertise to make a tank to rival the Panther since USA was in no immediate danger but optimal use of abundant resources proved just as efficient.
I mostly agree with your post.
About their late war tanks I would say formidable or superior would be a better description than quality. The panther it had some pretty major quality defects but its capabilities on the battlefeild made it better than any other tank it came up against. The germans tried to build quality but resource shortages and the limitations of their industry meant that the panther had a dodgy final drive and armour that was too brittle and prone to cracking. I dont think the tiger was a very efficient use of resources for germany but the panther was and so were the stug's. Given all the other advantages that the allies and russians had I would think the germans would have lost their battles a lot more decisively if they only had tanks like the sherman or T34.
 

Acaios

Second Lieutenant
99 Badges
Dec 28, 2008
164
246
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
I love people who says "germoney lost ahahah bla bla bla poor economical strategy" without taking into account that 10 million german soldiers plus 2-3milion axis soldiers (not counting japan) keep up the ground for 3 years vs 12milion russians, 12 million yankees, 4 million tommies and 1-2milion from minors (canada, austrialia, india...) ending the war with a >>1 kills/death ratio.

Allies spent way more money than Germany to win their war.
 

D Inqu

General
104 Badges
Jun 20, 2007
2.117
802
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • King Arthur II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II
Yet the tanks produced by USA and USSR were way over 4 times the tanks produced by Germany.
True, but you are of course aware that around half of the Shermans produced never during the war even left the US? Also, the Soviet production figures figures are smaller than they appear, since the Soviets included rebuilt tanks in their figure.

Even at a 2 for 1 the Panther is better because a Panther was 45% more expansive that means that a Panther is 10% cheaper than 2 T-34s.
Only again that was not true. The cost of a tank (or anytihng for that matter), is not just the materials, it's the labor (both man-hours, and required qualification of workers). And a tank needs to do much more than shoot at enemy tanks. Tank shooting other tanks was not the main or even the desired situation for Allies or Soviets.

it doesn`t matter, the German tanks are still more economically viable.
The workhorses like the StuGs - were certainly very cost effective (not sure if they were more cost-effective than allied vehicles, but it's bit hard to compare). Disasterous project like the Panther - no.

It more tells the situation the german army was at that time then which tank was better. Give the allies the Panther and give Germans the Sherman and Im sure you get the same result.
The Germans were in poor shape in 1944, but they lost even the engagements they were expecting to win, like Arracourt. And part of the reason were due to the deficiencies of the Panther.

I muse over this a bit - now I'm no expert (so could be all wrong), and I haven't crunched the numbers, but the UK, USSR and the US built and deployed a lot of tanks against Germany
Without going into horrible detail, the short version is that the allies liked to spread their armor (like how each US division had a Sherman unit). The Germans, on the other hand liked concentrating their armor. So while overall the allies had more armor on the front, the engagements between armor could easily have a numerical German advantage.
 
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Status
Not open for further replies.