Intelligent Decisions, artificially speaking

[AussieKSU]

Just getting through one of my many plays of Arsenal of Democracy (AoD), and I must say, I am very excited to see the battle plan system coming in HOI4. Particularly because I think most of us can agree that the scripted AI, while at times was challenging, was not very clever. A disappointing conclusion to many AoD games has occurred when I find that the AI simply cannot give me a reasonably good game after I've spend many hours building, upgrading and such. I find I have to constrain myself to certain decisions so that I do not utterly destroy the AI. Compounded with the fact that AoD (and of course HOI) is a lengthy game, which adds problems for human opposition; therefore making a good AI engine very high on my wish list for HOI4. I have not seen any dev diaries about this topic, so I am hopin' and prayin' that my fears of a sub par computer opponent are not once again made true in HOI4. So, with that said, it seems the battleplan system may be a step (okay, a bounding leap) in the right direction for a good AI opponent, but there's many other challenges to good AI (speaking as an AI software dev myself). Perhaps some showcase of AI potential could be done in the upcoming diaries to ease my fears?

 

[General WVPM]

Hope the AI will make better battleplans than HOI3's 'focus all VPs'

 

[Cowsnipe]

I'm interested in how the ai knows how to use which units for certain tasks. In HoI3, cav/moto/mech/tank units had a fast=true flag that the ai could use, tough i rarely saw it put to good use to make exploitation moves. It also knew that garrisons were intended for static defence, but i can't remember if it had a flag for it. The ai seemed completely incapable of factoring in terrain, it wouldn't attack if the odds were against it, but it never prioritised to send mountaineers to mountain regions and so on.


So, the big question then is how aware of these issues is the ai in HoI4?

 

[Modestus]

If you look at the last WWW you will notice that some Divisions engage with the enemy and others do not and instead they move up and down behind their own lines which means that less Divisions engage with the enemy and breakthroughs (if any) take longer and Divisions are suffering higher causalities needlessly.


Below you can see that a number of Divisions are on walkabout so instructions to the AI need to be much more detailed otherwise half your army will be on holidays.

 

[Kovax]

HOI3 had no distinction between regular INF and specialty units, so the AI would send GAR racing ahead to seize VPs, use MTN in the open plains, and assault mountain provinces with INF or MIL, while utilizing MAR to garrison the cities.

It also seems to have had no clue about what to do with HQs, and whether or not to count them as combat units, even though it didn't use them as such. I once saw AI Germany launch an attack on Denmark using a "full army" of half a dozen HQs, plus a GAR division and one real INF division. For some strange reason, that wasn't quite enough firepower to attack across the straits to seize the capital, so the AI started sending an additional Corps from another front, and then sent it back before it arrived, and continued doing that back and forth for around two years (when the game ended rather abruptly). GER also sent several mostly armored armies into Norway, where they promptly stalled in the mountains for lack of fuel and began to starve, then sent additional troops when the fighting strength of the original force dropped to almost nil. That continued until GER had depleted the entire Soviet border of everything except a whole lot of scattered HQs and one lone combat division, and THEN it launched Barbarossa on schedule. The Soviets were in Berlin in a couple of months. THAT is what I DON'T want to see in HOI4.

 

[Fulmen]

Judging by what we've seen in the WWW videos, there remains a lot to be done to improve the AI. Granted, they were playing on speed 3 during wartime, which is too fast in HoI MP games, meaning that a lot of the battle plans were overly simplified.

Still, there was stuff like the AI sending divisions back and forth in some non-frontline province while other divisions were attacking.

And let's not forget that the German player repeatedly said that his divisions were attacking the Maginot line even when he specifically told them not to. Could be that he missclicked, but this is still something worth mentioning.

 

[Mannstien]

Judging by what we've seen in the WWW videos, there remains a lot to be done to improve the AI. Granted, they were playing on speed 3 during wartime, which is too fast in HoI MP games, meaning that a lot of the battle plans were overly simplified.

Still, there was stuff like the AI sending divisions back and forth in some non-frontline province while other divisions were attacking.

And let's not forget that the German player repeatedly said that his divisions were attacking the Maginot line even when he specifically told them not to. Could be that he missclicked, but this is still something worth mentioning.

As to be expected, the Italians had no units left in Afrika to speak of except East Afrika which perhaps they were stuck their anyhow with the Med closed and also the entire Japanese navy in one port not doing anything while they were at war.

 

[Sn3ipen]

And let's not forget that the German player repeatedly said that his divisions were attacking the Maginot line even when he specifically told them not to. Could be that he missclicked, but this is still something worth mentioning.

He ordered the troops to prepare for a direct attack trough the Maginot line one stream before the war started. It might not have been his intentions, but that is exactly what he did.

To me it looks like the AI did exactly as it was told to do on autopilot.

That's what happens when you play on speed 3.

 

[Modestus]

He ordered the troops to prepare for a direct attack trough the Maginot line one stream before the war started. It might not have been his intentions, but that is exactly what he did.

To me it looks like the AI did exactly as it was told to do on autopilot.

That's what happens when you play on speed 3.

Actually if you look at the video again those Plans are not activated but for some reason

Divisions are attacking the Maginot line.


At least that is they way it looks to me.

 

[Zaku]

Actually if you look at the video again those Plans are not activated but for some reason

Divisions are attacking the Maginot line.


At least that is they way it looks to me.

Even Johan confirmed that Jakob actually executed the attack.(after the stream in the WWW topic)

 

[Modestus]

Even Johan confirmed that Jakob actually executed the attack.(after the stream in the WWW topic)

Your right he activated the Plan and then deactivated when he realised what was going on.

 

[safe-keeper]

AI was disabled for at least one WWW video.

 

[Fulmen]

AI was disabled for at least one WWW video.

That was the Finland one.

 

[Alexander Suvorov]

Couple of notes.

I have seen during the first WWW video (Spanish civil war part) were the AI was pretty out matched in terms of unit equipment and tried some good indirect cut-the-supply line moves instead of frontal attack which is just what you want the AI to be doing with a unit of badly equipped guerillas.

I too am puzzled by the Japanese navy being so inactive; I would expect a good portion of those smaller screen ships should be spread out and attacking convoys of the coast of china. they might even have enough vessels for blockades/bombardments but they seem to do none of this and it probably isn't helping the stalled land war in china that the navy is not doing its part.

The units in the screenshot posted which are moving around instead of pushing forward are allied units, not with green units frame. so they are working exactly as you'd want them to support your units but not jump in front of your line and capture a pocket of territory. The allied troops seem to me to be hanging out right behind the line or along it and reinforcing attacked points and moving to reinforce the points the player attacks without pushing ahead of the battle plan line the player has drawn and capturing territory. so that I think is working great and I am happy to see the allied troops are active in moving to reinforce.

 

[Fulmen]

The units in the screenshot posted which are moving around instead of pushing forward are allied units, not with green units frame.

Player units in one of the Franco-German WWWs were doing this too.

Specifically, German units were going back and forth into an empty Dutch province already captured by Germany before being rerouted elsewhere. It wasn't very serious and they only did this for a few days, but it's still something I'd rather not see the AI do with my units, especially while I'm on the attack.

 

[Alexander Suvorov]

ah yes, I see what you mean. I saw Daniel canceling movements like this in favor of more direct advances several times as well. it may be because they're grabbing large groups of units and assigning wide fronts for their battle lines. if you had smaller groups with battle lines assigned by say geographical region as opposed to really wide battle lines assigned to the whole border that might help.

 

[Fulmen]

it may be because they're grabbing large groups of units and assigning wide fronts for their battle lines. if you had smaller groups with battle lines assigned by say geographical region as opposed to really wide battle lines assigned to the whole border that might help.

Perhaps.

In this case it seems that the AI didn't know it should have cancelled the move orders to that province as the province was already taken and there was no enemy presence bordering it, so it actually had to have the units reach that province before giving them new orders. Classic PDOX AI behavior and something they definitely need to keep working on.

 

[MajorHeartfire]

One day we are all going to regret talking crap about this early AI because the real AI is going to read the Internet and be so pissed that we talked crap about its ancestors...

That being said, AI in paradox games is always like a 7/10 for players like me (filthy casuals). Sometimes they surprise you, but typically they just make you regret being cocky or overconfident in yourself. Ultimately if you want a real good challenge, you play multiplayer.

 

[Modestus]

ah yes, I see what you mean. I saw Daniel canceling movements like this in favor of more direct advances several times as well. it may be because they're grabbing large groups of units and assigning wide fronts for their battle lines. if you had smaller groups with battle lines assigned by say geographical region as opposed to really wide battle lines assigned to the whole border that might help.

I would presume that if you create a wide Front a great distance away with a single advance arrow (axis of attack) the AI has much greater freedom to do what it wants in fact I know it has more freedom because your giving it the freedom.


If you wish to control the behaviour of the AI more tightly the player will need to issue more detailed instructions such as more and smaller Front lines with more advance arrows.


This is just simply the way it works, Battle Plans are instructions to the AI and the more instructions the more likely the AI will follow them.


Daniel chose to issue a general instruction to his whole army and then to intervene manually where he wanted this meant that he spent most of his time correcting what they AI was doing rather then having anything that could remotely be described as a Battle Plan.


Troops where not massed to create Breakthroughs, there was no concentration of force, no positioning of PZ Divisions there was zero preparation for an attack and yet he gets a preparation bonus because drawing a Font line makes it a Plan.


Almost every principle of modern warfare was ignored I have no idea what his Air force where doing but I assume trying to gain air superiority they certainly could not attack at breakthrough points because if you issue such a general order you have no points of attack.


As I have said before Plans unless they are really prepared and issued with detailed instructions rely more on luck or pure chance then anything.