Intelligence System - Is It Fun?

[vimhawk]

A lot of people won't like the 'fun' word, but its quite important to me, its why I play Paradox games. So I evalutate 'improvements' in terms of whether they make the game more fun.

Clearly the intelligence aspects of DD add a lot more work for the player, but does it make the game more fun? From my first game (as UK), I have mixed feelings but currently coming down on the side of 'chore' rather than 'fun'. It gives me extra work to do without adding much to my gaming experience.

I think I'd prefer an intelligence assessment paragraph in the diplomacy menu that reflected intelligence matters in the abstract (after all, this game is played at national strategy level, and a lot of things are abstracted). I'd rather not worry about getting a single spy into another country. Its just something else to worry about.

As for the spy options, they seem more than I really need, if indeed they have much value. I must have tried 20 times to steal German blueprints on a 25% chance without success, losing a spy each time. I'm also sorry that the information about number of divisions, ships etc, is now only available from the Intelligence menu... it should be reproduced in the stats menu as well.

It means you would probably have to trade for money, even if you wanted to play a game where you didn't require much trading (like the Sovs don't have to unless you want to).

I know a lot of people will like it, simply because it gives you something else to do and control. This is all very well if the new system adds fun, but IMHO it doesn't.

 

[Spruce]

I think there are big lines and details.

The big lines for the intelligence system are good. You have the defense and you have the offense ... and the amount of spies you have in your target nation is limited ... 10 max. Lots of options for the spies... And if you have the spy teams, you prolly use them just before or during war. I used this tactic in my last game - and it pays off ... so I like it.

Second thing - the priorities - it's not logical to assume one nation can get full spy teams in all nations around the world. Now - it's virtually possible (I captured 10.000 gold pieces from annexing Netherlands, that's a lot of spies ) and it can push the human player to do too many spy work. I think you have too much freedom - weird quote perhaps, but still ...

I think some minor tweaks are needed to bring the whole picture in balance. For the moment the only thing I would like to see changed is constraining the time frame of both defensive and offensive - to prevent the player from sending too many spies, too many defensive spy actions and also to bring an extra element of fun in MP games. Do your spies defend - or do your spies infiltrate?

f.e. if you send (offense) a spy to USA - you have to wait for the next spy even for your defensive actions. This will be more fun I guess

 

[thomaha]

I agree with everything you said. The intelligence systems gives a few new options, or ways to outsmart the ai, but for me, it does not add to the fun level of the game. As you also point out, a more abstract aproach could be more meaningfull and fun.
I like HoI DD a LOT more than HoI2 1.3, but the intelligence system doesn't play any part of that.

 

[dconner]

It's fun, but some of the details are un-fun. For instance, keeping track of the dates is a bother. One thing that'd be nice for both Intelligence and Diplomacy would be some sort of toggle you could activate for "Notify me when my spy/diplomat becomes available for action again."

There should probably be more national variation, too, though making it work off Money, and the amounts chosen for various actions, seems like a pretty good differentiator. All spies seem to be equal, but it's a lot easier for a major power to have a big, sprawling, effective intelligence organization than a minor country.

 

[unmerged(38983)]

I like how spies get intel on tech development and number of divisions. I also like the concept of stealing blueprints, assasinating ministers, and all of that stuff. In practice though it always seems like your chances of getting anything done are in the low to impossible range, which does make it a bit of a chore to constantly repeat the same actions in the hopes that one time out of 20 you might steal that blueprint or delay that techteam. A way of automating many of the intelligence actions would go a long way IMO to improve their fun-factor. That way you would have a greater chance of success over the long run as well as not have to constantly micromanage your spy-related activities.

 

[Alexander Seil]

If the chances for these actions were not consistently impossible, you could take over the world in a year if you had enough money. Try "money" and "acceptall" and see how long it takes you to start civil wars in USSR and USA...

 

[Josephus I]

Conceptually it's cool. But I can see how after a campaign or two, it will be as much fun as sending merchants to CoTs.

 

[JohnMK]

It's a lot of clicking, and a lot of carpal tunnel syndrome induction. If it could be abstracted, or automated, or elsewise made less click intensive, that would be wonderful.

 

[unmerged(55451)]

For my two cents it's far too much work for the result. Only the real high industrialized countries (that's four, maybe five) have a chance. Playing Italy, I could have thrown all the money in the mare nostrum, would be better off there.

 

[unmerged(52397)]

For my two cents it's far too much work for the result. Only the real high industrialized countries (that's four, maybe five) have a chance. Playing Italy, I could have thrown all the money in the mare nostrum, would be better off there.

as italy i did quite well with my spies in france, france is your target, you have to focus your efforts

 

[rado907]

in my dd game i didn't really like the intelligence feature. i only used it to check enemy strength. to be honest i would've preferred the old rosters (where all nations were included). imo intelligence is too much of a hassle. sending spies is a nuisance. clicking send spy with 20% prob of success means you have to open the menu, find the desired nation, and click, literally hundreds of times. in an already complicated game that's a terrible annoyance.
also, i found that spying in peace time has terrible effect on relations, so i more or less left spying only to war time. on the other hand if somehow you end up with infinite money (long term dissent decreaces or a captured stockpile), you can abuse spying and never really lose relations because you can also spend money on diplomacy.

in my game i ended up just keeping 10 spies for counter (even tho as far as i know the ai already knows everything anyway ;-)), and just kept 1-2 spies in the biggest countries to know how many troops they have. i was the ussr, and at one point managed to get 10 spies into germany, but to be fair they were of no much use.

so in conclusion, no offense paradox, but i feel the intelligence system adds a feature too many to an already very rich game.
---
yeah the obvious parallel is sending merchants to cot in eu2... no fun at all. with automation it can maybe become bearable.

 

[Ex Mudder]

Conceptually it's cool. But I can see how after a campaign or two, it will be as much fun as sending merchants to CoTs.

Hear Hear!

Persoanlly, I love hitting the "Global Mainipulation" Button to get JAP, GER, and SOV belligerance up in an attempt to get a nice Gearing Up For War event, and so minors can jump in. Successful smear campaigns and fund partisans are fun as well. I like getting fed blueprints w/o having to join an alliance. I love that I can see what other nations are up to w/o showtech and nofog cheats. And I think the intel screen itself adds a whole new dimension to the game.

But I HATE clicking multiple times to get another spy in, so I can do one of these fun things.

There are a number of other problems - Attempt Coup had no ill effects if it fails - you don't even lose a spy. You lose a spy when someone else catches one of yours - that "no spies found" means someone else killed one of your spies, and you have to wait a week to send a new one. Many messages are incomplete or incomprehensible.

But yeah, the click to send merchants is a great analogy. Annoying, and no automation (or bad automation in EU II).

But to answer the original question: Playing as the US, with scads of money, I think it's hella fun (+50% money VP, +50% money full dove). I could deal with the dissapointment of failed missions better if every failed mission didn't need 2-3 clicks to get your spy back, and (in some cases) 1-2 clicks to get your influence up (like when I'm stealing blueprints from the Allies in '37). At four clicks per mission, having to remember to go back and do so, jumping around screens, and a low chance of success once yo get the actual mission, it becomes awfully tedious. Lose the tedium, and it becomes fun.

Of course, if you're mainly in the mood for a war game, skip it and use your money making friends and influencing people into your alliance. Remember, a DOW halves CG demands, thus halving available money. Makes the whole "declare war on Afganistan" "keep the SCW going as France to lose Peacetime IC mod" less inviting.

I never influence people as the US. Half the time, I get +1 freedom or +1 free market or +1 open; the other half of the time I get -1 hawk -1 standing or -1 intervention. Yuck. I'll influence minors after I get those nice events that give me good sliders. Makes the years before 1941 awful boring as the US, as my money accumulates ad infinitum. Spying alleviates that.

 

[unmerged(39845)]

Completely agree.

The options are cool but need automation.

The intell subsystem requires more clicks than it's worth.

I simply want to pick level (keep me as close to 10 as possible), mission (blueprints or sabotage), and frequency (weekly, monthly) and forget about it.

 

[jxa536]

For me, once the novelty of the systmen wore off it adds huge amounts of fun to the "buildup" years of 36-39. Really gives you something else to play with!

 

[unmerged(19915)]

I would like some sliders that allow me to put a percent or absolute amount of money towards spying every timeframe. Then allow me to choose, broadly, who I spy on allowable by their alliance, geographic location, ideology, belligerence, relations, etc.

So that I could set my spymaster, with $2/day to spy on Communist Nations in Europe, or $3/day to spy on Latin-American Paternal Autocrats.

That would be cool, and abstract the system enough to make it fun, while leaving you with enough control to be useful.

 

[unmerged(55919)]

An automated set up would be nice for those who do not want to micromanage spying.

I just think it costs way too much money and for a very small success rate. As an example, trying to steal blueprints costs around 60-100 per attempt. It states 20-25% success rate (which seems to optimistic from what I am seeing) and when I do get something it is invariably a tech I cannot use or do not want. Also, for everytime I fail it takes 3-4 attempts to replace the lost spy (again 40-45% success does not seem accurate). So, 400-500 for what will probably be a useless blueprint?!

I good fix would be to lower the cost some and not have every failure result in a lost spy. Also, sending spies should not be a hit on relations, it was/is standard practice in international relations.

 

[unmerged(54421)]

Also, sending spies should not be a hit on relations, it was/is standard practice in international relations.

Bingo. I don't know who came up with the idea that spying somehow pissed rival nations off, but they're living in limbo-land. If this model was applied to the current world, the US, UK, Isreal, Pakistan, Russia and China would be at war with about half of the globe.

Also, a semi-automated system for spying (send a spy to X country at Y intervals to complete Z mission) would be simply orgasmic in relation to the current click fest that is the intelligence menu.

 

[unmerged(20826)]

I agree that there is a lot of clicking involved - but the intelligence system adds more realism to the game ( and I am aware, that HOI is not a simulator...) E.g. that you cannot check your potential enemys strength in the statistics, but you have to rely on somewhat inaccurate spy reports. A historical example: before Barbarossa Germany had a rough idea of the Russian armys strength, but they were in fact quite surprised by the number of divisions, they encountered in the field.

 

[vimhawk]

I agree that there is a lot of clicking involved - but the intelligence system adds more realism to the game ( and I am aware, that HOI is not a simulator...) E.g. that you cannot check your potential enemys strength in the statistics, but you have to rely on somewhat inaccurate spy reports. A historical example: before Barbarossa Germany had a rough idea of the Russian armys strength, but they were in fact quite surprised by the number of divisions, they encountered in the field.

- Too much clicking for too little result!
- Realism? A lot of other things are abstracted, this needs to be more abstract.
- Agreed you can't just get a statistical report of your enemy, but the summary shown in the stats pages, which no longer exists, should still be there, even if its based on your spy reports rather than completely accurate. Having to go to each countries for this information is ridiculous.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

As for me, I really like the int system.
Yes, it IS some sort off click&forget - click again thingy, but its always a great feeling if you get an effect. Dead Josef, for example
Automatic spy placement would be a good idea, though.

I haven't played much DD - just 2 ganes as France - but as far as i noticed, the system was way too powerful for the money getters - and a hanicap for plan-economie nations like the SU...

I am really excited who it changes the MP games. Bet spyhunting and minister assisination are great for player interaction.
Though this will be evil if you have to fight at multiple borders