Integration should not be manditory

[scaper12123]

I think it's odd how you can vassalize a fanatical purifier nation, and then ten years down the line integrate them into your empire no questions asked. They just go "we accept our integration into a filthy xeno empire." and I'm just like ???

Examples aside, I think it's a bit silly for integration to be mandatory because not every empire would accept becoming merged with another, especially if their ethics differ. They might accept being a vassal, certainly, and probably would happily fight alongside their lord if it meant their own survival, but an egalitarian being integrated into a dictatorship? Those kinds of situations should be when an empire says "We like and respect you, but we refuse integration." It would certainly help out roleplay in that respect. All that said, I feel like integration should be reusable by yourself and other empires, the latter basing the decision solely on similarity in ethics.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

EU4 did a pretty good job of attaching integration to a relationship modifier. Now, you could overcome any degree of cultural animosity through the power of a wide enough power differential, but it was possible for a vassal to be either too large or too angry for integration.

But on an unrelated note, Fanatical Purifier is receiving a bit of a rework come Utopia that includes removing a lot of diplomatic options. Are we even sure they'll be capable of being vassals?

 

[Emraldis]

EU4 did a pretty good job of attaching integration to a relationship modifier. Now, you could overcome any degree of cultural animosity through the power of a wide enough power differential, but it was possible for a vassal to be either too large or too angry for integration.

But on an unrelated note, Fanatical Purifier is receiving a bit of a rework come Utopia that includes removing a lot of diplomatic options. Are we even sure they'll be capable of being vassals?

Considering it's both a war thing, and a diplomacy thing, it probably is possible.

 

[The_Human_Oddity]

An Indian Princely State rose up against the British Raj in order to get out of being a protectorate and freeing the rest of India.

It was one city large.

 

[forfor]

Btw if you want an underhanded way to get a more friendly vassal, integrate them, then hit create vassal, and give back all the planets. It removes any past animosity, and gives them your ethos. Not to mention they get all your tech, so good for getting vassals that can keep up with you if you have low-tech vassals. Also a good way to start the process of converting pop ethos. Just create a bunch of 1-system vassals, wait a while, then re-integrate.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Considering it's both a war thing, and a diplomacy thing, it probably is possible.

If this were EU4 I'd have no doubt. But in this game you have the ability to liberate and install a friendly government from the outset. It's entirely possible that the Fanatic Purifier government is flat out incapable of bending the knee and will need to be replaced either via liberation or conquest.

 

[Slynx]

but....it's only their sectors\star systems who are changing owners. and their government is just replaced.
the people will still be f.purifiers (iirc fanatic xenophobe\militarists). and may be unhappy with your decision..unless you do something (re-education\slavery\purge\suppression)

 

[Drowe]

I dislike the current system somewhat, I'm playing as a pacifist individualist empire, and I have three vassals who started out as protectorates plus another protectorate. One of them is pretty strong with 6 planets and 106 pops and another with 4 planets and 74 pops, I have 14 planets and 277 pops. That gives me a pretty stiff penalty to relations, meaning I have to bribe them to stay loyal, differing ethos doesn't help there, but that'll get fixed in the next update.

 

[krios41]

One of them is pretty strong with 6 planets and 106 pops and another with 4 planets and 74 pops, I have 14 planets and 277 pops. That gives me a pretty stiff penalty to relations,

that is broken right now.
Even if i have 100 planets and 5 one planet minors, then i wil stil get a hefty relationpenalty for 'relative strenght' while i'm clearly overwelmingly superior >.>

 

[eagletrekkie]

that is broken right now.
Even if i have 100 planets and 5 one planet minors, then i wil stil get a hefty relationpenalty for 'relative strenght' while i'm clearly overwelmingly superior >.>

Unfortunately, I don't think relative strength takes planets and population into account at all - I believe it is entirely based upon military power of your fleets, though I'm not entirely sure on that.

 

[Drowe]

Unfortunately, I don't think relative strength takes planets and population into account at all - I believe it is entirely based upon military power of your fleets, though I'm not entirely sure on that.

That's weird, I haven't checked their military power, but I'm pretty sure it's far above their combined power.

 

[krios41]

- I believe it is entirely based upon military power of your fleets, though I'm not entirely sure on that.

Nope, because i have a 250K fleet and their fleet is like 1k?

 

[Kourgath223]

Unfortunately, I don't think relative strength takes planets and population into account at all - I believe it is entirely based upon military power of your fleets, though I'm not entirely sure on that.

I believe number of pops has an effect on Naval Capacity and one of the three things the game compares to tell you overall power is Fleet Capacity, granted I don't know if it looks at used Fleet Capacity or Max Fleet Capacity.

 

[terrycloth]

I think it's odd how you can vassalize a fanatical purifier nation, and then ten years down the line integrate them into your empire no questions asked. They just go "we accept our integration into a filthy xeno empire." and I'm just like ???

Examples aside, I think it's a bit silly for integration to be mandatory because not every empire would accept becoming merged with another, especially if their ethics differ. They might accept being a vassal, certainly, and probably would happily fight alongside their lord if it meant their own survival, but an egalitarian being integrated into a dictatorship? Those kinds of situations should be when an empire says "We like and respect you, but we refuse integration." It would certainly help out roleplay in that respect. All that said, I feel like integration should be reusable by yourself and other empires, the latter basing the decision solely on similarity in ethics.

In theory this should drive them to revolt if they're disloyal, but in practice (a) it's hard to keep a vassal disloyal because of trust, and (b) the computer won't start a war it doesn't think it can win, so they rarely revolt.

 

[General Retreat]

I've actually found it's beneficial to create a thin vassal state between me and my immediate neighbours, because they act as a handy buffer to absorb all the border pressure/tension. That's really the only reason not to integrate vassals.

So far as vassals themselves refusing to be integrated though, I'm not sure if integration should actually be made more difficult. It is supposed to be a long term solution (20 years from conquest to absorbed, usually) to avoid conquest happiness penalties. If they're there anyway, there's not really any practical reason not to expand solely by cede planet.

 

[Foefaller]

This is another thing that should be looked into for a diplomacy overhaul/update. Most people focus on federations and the possibility of espionage/trade and a space UN, but vassalage and subject empires need some love too.

As for the "relative strength" modifier for vassals, it's always suppose to be a negative, and it's based on the % of their total power (not fleet power) compared to yours (i.e. if their total power is 50% of yours, the modifier is -50) Since it's their overall power rating, that means vassals made from empires that are relatively equal or greater in technological progress compared to yours are always going to have a pretty noticeable strength penalty, even if they have practically no fleet to speak of. I believe it also takes *all* subjects into account as well, so having many vassals will make them all disloyal, even if no single one could ever hope to take you on.

I've actually found it's beneficial to create a thin vassal state between me and my immediate neighbours, because they act as a handy buffer to absorb all the border pressure/tension. That's really the only reason not to integrate vassals.

So far as vassals themselves refusing to be integrated though, I'm not sure if integration should actually be made more difficult. It is supposed to be a long term solution (20 years from conquest to absorbed, usually) to avoid conquest happiness penalties. If they're there anyway, there's not really any practical reason not to expand solely by cede planet.

I tend to use them a lot when playing Commonwealth of Man and similar empires (i.e. little or no ways to counter ethic divergence) cause they can help expand your power and income without taking direct control of territories. CoM in particular, I usually have several vassals + 1 or 2 tributaries by the time I'm finished with that game, acting as buffers and extra sources of ships or income that I don't have to keep happy or obedient... at least until I get Mind-Control Lasers.

Should work better in Banks, assuming the Domination Tradition tree hasn't changed much since it was teased. Gaining a % of your vassal's fleet cap as your own, extra income from tributaries, with improved opionions and a perma research agreement with both should make being overlord of a true Empire of several vassal states a fun, viable prospect.

 

[scaper12123]

In theory this should drive them to revolt if they're disloyal, but in practice (a) it's hard to keep a vassal disloyal because of trust, and (b) the computer won't start a war it doesn't think it can win, so they rarely revolt.

the second half of the issue will potentially be addressed with the update next week, wherein vassals and rebels will be asking for support in their rebellion.