Integrating APCs into the Tank Designer

[andseanfor]

I was thinking about how light tank chassis can be wheeled or have half tracks. Why not add the ability to replace the turret with an infantry compartment to turn it into an APC? Tanks and APCs already have so much in common: heavily armored, small secondary weapons, tracks or half tracks, etc.

Obviously this couldn’t replace the current mechanized techs because a lot of those seem to be based on truck chassis’s so they couldn’t be made in the tank designer (unless...). But tank designer APCs could be a middle ground between tanks and mechanized.

I’m not a dev so this might be super hard to implement, and I’m not a historian so idk if this is even realistic. But it’s a fun idea I guess

 

[Orlunu]

APCs and tank-desant would be quite cool for a mod, but I think would be burdensome in terms of units and so on for the vanilla. Being able to use "fighting vehicle" halftracks and cars as a funny light tank variant with the upcoming system seems nice, though.

 

[Hippob4]

Yeah, I'd love to see APCs or early (experimental?) IFVs.

I guess the closest at the time were the Kangaroo carriers. Troop carriers converted from Shermans and Grants

Definitely would give a bunch of breakthrough to infantry pushes :O

I have also wondered how HOI4 could model Tank Desant. Not sure if it should actually a different unit type. Or maybe it already exists in the game. Just combining tanks and infantry brigades. Tanks still moving as slow as infantry, but I suppose you could imagine some infantry squads riding into combat but not nearly enough to justify 6-12km speed overall as a unit

Or maybe another idea could be attaching tanks as support units.

 

[Shadow86]

APCs are pretty much the vehicles of mechanized infantry, already in the game.

Infantry fighting vehicles are a late 1950s concept, with the German Schützenpanzer Lang HS.30 being the world's first IFV, according to Wikipedia.

 

[Znail]

IFV's does suffer from the fact that while the technology to make them were present so did the idea to do so only come much later.

Kangaroo carriers on the other hand would fit in the game. The main diffrence is that while they are armored so are they limited to standard infantry support weapons like machineguns, mortars and flamethrowers.

Actually, the closest to IFV's we come would be armored cars. Personally I think AC should have some hp bonus.

 

[pheonicia]

What role would it serve in game that isn't covered by mechanized though?

 

[Znail]

What role would it serve in game that isn't covered by mechanized though?

AC is essentially the opposit of Mech as they are the poor but dirt cheap alternative. Right now so are AC of litterally no use in normal units as they are just half cost and half as good as LT while taking up the same width. By adding some hp so would you need fewer infantry in the unit to make up for the poor stats of the AC. LT+MOT would beat AC, but at least AC would be cheaper and possibly do ok if combat width is of no concern, like in Africa.

 

[sudpud]

AC is essentially the opposit of Mech as they are the poor but dirt cheap alternative. Right now so are AC of litterally no use in normal units as they are just half cost and half as good as LT while taking up the same width. By adding some hp so would you need fewer infantry in the unit to make up for the poor stats of the AC. LT+MOT would beat AC, but at least AC would be cheaper and possibly do ok if combat width is of no concern, like in Africa.

I use 6/4 or 7/3 Spanish Mot/AC with MobileInfantry as cheap coastal garrison in MP, where tanks aren't typically allowed on the coasts. The work as rubberless and cheap Marine(because of hardness) and Amtract defender(ATAC has good HA and piercing). I'd prefer mech, but it's too expensive(in IC and rubber) for anything but ports.

 

[Shadow86]

IFV's does suffer from the fact that while the technology to make them were present so did the idea to do so only come much later.

Kangaroo carriers on the other hand would fit in the game. The main diffrence is that while they are armored so are they limited to standard infantry support weapons like machineguns, mortars and flamethrowers.

Actually, the closest to IFV's we come would be armored cars. Personally I think AC should have some hp bonus.

The Kangaroo carrier is already in the game, in the form of the last mechanized infantry transport for the UK (and possibly other Commonwealth nations).

An IFV is essentially an armoured transport coupled with stronger weaponry, on the level of an armoured car at worst, light tank at best. It needs both transport capability and that increased offensive power to conceptually qualify as an infantry fighting vehicle. A stronger AC is just a light tank: it doesn't make it an IFV because it can't carry troops.

The military thinking is just not quite there yet in the 1940s. It's a concept of the MBT era.

 

[Orlunu]

An IFV is essentially an armoured transport coupled with stronger weaponry, on the level of an armoured car at worst, light tank at best. It needs both transport capability and that increased offensive power to conceptually qualify as an infantry fighting vehicle. A stronger AC is just a light tank: it doesn't make it an IFV because it can't carry troops.

Might be because I have slightly odd geographical biases, but a lot of the ACs that immediately come to mind were transports at least in part. Bunch of Japanese / Manchurian armoured cars had passenger compartments and even the Type 94 TK was kinda a troop-carrier in its original role.

 

[goodcigar]

Mechanized should be in the Tank Designer in my opinion. It's weird to leave them out. @Archangel85

 

[Archangel85]

This was discussed and one of the things that had to be cut because the codebase does not support it. The role switching magic we use assumes that there is a one-to-one mapping of light chassis with light tanks/tank destroyers/Spart etc. So light chassis can not become mechanized equipment, they would have to be light mechanized equipment (and medium chassis would have to be medium mechanized equipment). Since subunits are very peculiar about what equipment they can accept, we would have to make several new subunits for each class of chassis.

I don't fully understand why this is a big technical problem, but we decided that it was too big of a risk to invest several weeks worth of work to get mechanized equipment into the tank designer when the payoff is comparatively small.

 

[sudpud]

This was discussed and one of the things that had to be cut because the codebase does not support it. The role switching magic we use assumes that there is a one-to-one mapping of light chassis with light tanks/tank destroyers/Spart etc. So light chassis can not become mechanized equipment, they would have to be light mechanized equipment (and medium chassis would have to be medium mechanized equipment). Since subunits are very peculiar about what equipment they can accept, we would have to make several new subunits for each class of chassis.

I don't fully understand why this is a big technical problem, but we decided that it was too big of a risk to invest several weeks worth of work to get mechanized equipment into the tank designer when the payoff is comparatively small.

Could you just make them modifiable/"variant-able", like tanks/airplanes are now? Could add armor, speed, reliability, extra attack, like Tanks currently are?

 

[Louella]

Could you just make them modifiable/"variant-able", like tanks/airplanes are now? Could add armor, speed, reliability, extra attack, like Tanks currently are?

seems that's the plan.

 

[Toybasher]

seems that's the plan.

I'm actually a little concerned about this. Mechanized is slower than motorized so you have to make a decision to put motorized in your light tank divisions, and mechanized in your medium and heavies.

If we can increase speed of mechanized, we're going to see mechanized in light tank divisions, and possibly able to even match the speed of upgraded light tanks, which I think might be a problem.

Basically mechanized is going to completely replace motorized. No point making motorized anymore, besides for logistics.

Granted the speed increase for mechanized might just be so you can keep up with late-model mediums, but we don't know how fast you can make them go.

 

[Archangel85]

It's a 5% speed boost per upgrade level, so the last mechanized tier can get up to 15 km/h.

 

[ArtemBan]

The role switching magic we use assumes that there is a one-to-one mapping of light chassis with light tanks/tank destroyers/Spart etc. So light chassis can not become mechanized equipment, they would have to be light mechanized equipment (and medium chassis would have to be medium mechanized equipment).

How do you handle amphibious tanks then? Light/medium amphibious tanks?
Or you have amphibious tank chassis, and we can make only amphibious tanks using it? What's the point of amphibious drive then?

 

[Archangel85]

How do you handle amphibious tanks then? Light/medium amphibious tanks?
Or you have amphibious tank chassis, and we can make only amphibious tanks using it? What's the point of amphibious drive then?

It's both: you start out with an amphibious chassis, that goes into regular amphibious tank battalions. Later you get the amphibious drive, which allows you to convert, but those tanks go into separate subunits. It's awkward, but we felt that the advantage of turning your medium tank design into your amphibious tank design (instead of being constrained by the restrictions on the amphibious chassis) outweigh the drawbacks.

 

[blahmaster6k]

The Kangaroo carrier is already in the game, in the form of the last mechanized infantry transport for the UK (and possibly other Commonwealth nations).

An IFV is essentially an armoured transport coupled with stronger weaponry, on the level of an armoured car at worst, light tank at best. It needs both transport capability and that increased offensive power to conceptually qualify as an infantry fighting vehicle. A stronger AC is just a light tank: it doesn't make it an IFV because it can't carry troops.

The military thinking is just not quite there yet in the 1940s. It's a concept of the MBT era.

Ironic that the Churchill Kangaroo is the highest tier (and therefore fastest) tier of mechanized equipment, when it was built on the chassis of the Churchill tank, a notoriously slow and heavy tank.

 

[goodcigar]

I can understand the limited manpower/time issue as a reason, but that makes it sound like HOI4 doesn't have enough manpower on the team. Can it be modded into the game at least?