Integral or Unnecessary: Unique Trees for Select Minors

[Culdranth]

Acknowledging that Poland, the USSR, and Italy are clearly on the docket for updates, some earlier than others, and the Finns being rumored to potentially see a reasonably well-desired and well-deserved focus tree, I was opening to unearth and expand on a discussion about unique Minors.

We already have discussed to some length the idea of opening up the Middle East, South America, and Scandinavia, all of which certainly have a place in history during this period, though their involvement in the war was at best thoroughly muted.

What minor nations does that leave us with to consider for unique trees?

I would suggest the Phillippines, Siam, Belgium, and perhaps Brazil.

I understand that Austria is a hot topic, but agree with the camp that they are often swallowed so early and an ahistorical scenario would likely be ambitious for the tag. Similar statements could be made for Albania, Tannu Tuva, and Luxembourg.

The preceding 4 however, I believe have some distinct impacts, and of the remaining minors, sans the aforementioned, I would be more eager to see these before a slew of Moddle Eastern uniques, Denmark, or Peru, for example.

But what of my peers? Which minors do you believe are most deserving, and would you agree/disagree with any of these sentiments? Am I overlooking any country in particular?

 

[bitmode]

Unnecessary

 

[Federkiel]

I think that this is also a matter of customer base (and maybe even origin of some devs or influential playtester base respectively) for the game. If there is any reasonable for a specific country, it will most likely sooner or later get a focus tree. So i could imagine that Brazil and Belgium are candidates, for the other mentioned nations i doubt it.

 

[DicRoNero]

Give me interesting mechanics to form core gameplay and semi-capable AI and I would care less about NFs. Not that I do now, but still.

As of now - drawing an outside example to convey the point - the situation reminds me of chess apps of the early 2000s relying heavily on their opening books [databases] and unable to play against non-conventional openings (like 1.c3), where they as Black would start 'thinking' from move 1 and receive effectively lost positions by move 10, as there were just too many computations and no guidelines to follow.

In HoI4, all this is even worse, as instead of being 'break-prone on exception' it's 'only workable in default' [focus-picking sequences].

 

[safe-keeper]

At least some of the countries in South America are obvious candidates. Then there's the Nordics, obviously. Further down the road, I'd like to see more Asian focus trees, even ones for potential independent countries such as Viet Nam or the Phillipines.

 

[Zhein]

We already have discussed to some length the idea of opening up the Middle East, South America, and Scandinavia, all of which certainly have a place in history during this period, though their involvement in the war was at best thoroughly muted.

What involvement in the war ?
What place in history during the WW2 ? "Iran was annexed because it was easier for russian lend lease" ? "Yemen... Existed" ?

I understand that Austria is a hot topic,

Ok, no I get it : this is a joke, you're 16 days late for april's fool.

 

[Feeblezak]

I will not be satisfied until Uruguay has a focus tree.

 

[Blinho]

I will not be satisfied until Uruguay has a focus tree.

OMG are you crazy??!! what about a tannu tuva one?

 

[safe-keeper]

What involvement in the war ?
What place in history during the WW2 ? "Iran was annexed because it was easier for russian lend lease" ? "Yemen... Existed" ?

I'd love an Iranian focus tree. Except, of course, since it's not exactly an industrial superpower, I'm not sure how much I'd be able to actually accomplish .

As for the others, it's not so much about their historical involvement as much as potential in the hands of a player. Spain was neutral for most of the war, but no one says you can't join the Allies or Axis (or even go down an even more ahistorical path) as a human player.

Also, even without focus trees, playing as a minor and just trying to have as much of an impact as possible with what you have can be really fun.

 

[Feeblezak]

OMG are you crazy??!! what about a tannu tuva one?

Tannu what?

 

[Blinho]

Tannu what?

Tuna pizza....so delicious

 

[Zhein]

As for the others, it's not so much about their historical involvement as much as potential in the hands of a player. Spain was neutral for most of the war, but no one says you can't join the Allies or Axis (or even go down an even more ahistorical path) as a human player.

Spain HAD an involvement in the war. It's the birth of air warfare, effectiveness of bombs, air superiority. It's the first tank battle in history. It's what shaped the concept of blitzkrieg.

And more importantly : There is an actual war in spain during the time period there. And It lasted 3 years. Of course it was not essential, but it's a nice touch, to have specific things for Spain.

What was the participation of Albania, Tannu Tuva, or Costa Rica in WW2 ? Did they fight any wars ?
You want to play Iran ? Fine. You have a generic focus tree for that.

But focus trees required dev time. Game design time. Integration time. Time that could be spent on anything that is not Denmark or Peru. Time that could be spent on usefull things instead of asking for Austria and Albania Focus Trees.

As I said : 16 days late for april's fool jokes.

 

[safe-keeper]

I believe, and hope, you are being sarcastic about Tannu Tuva and realise no one actually expects the devs to make them a focus tree. But apart from that, I'm not sure how much new focus trees even detract from other game development. I'm not sure if the devs in charge of making focus trees would be fixing the AI or other issues if they weren't working on those trees. The country pack they just released was even outsourced.

Also, statistics from the game shows a surprising amount of players play as minors. Not everyone plays as Germany or some other major in every single playthrough.

 

[.Raptor.]

I'm on board with "reasonable" focus trees for all minors in their time, based on my recent views people might thinj I'm opposed to a minor focus tree where in reality, my complaint is about a lack of strategic thinking in releasing said trees before countries like USSR and Italy.

Also they shouldn't be given op focuses that outclass those of important majors, Poles shouldn't get a 15 percent bonus in industry when Germans only get 5.

As for Iran, if you read the history, both Reza Shah and Mohammad Reza Shah were leading the country to a major status before mullahs sent everyone back into the middle ages.

 

[President Park Lee Ng]

I don't think minors need focus trees

Instead of giving minors focus trees, the base focus tree should allow them to gain a massive discount on justifying another nation. For a minor to have anything remotely approaching something that we can collectively call "fun" requires ahistorical playstyle based on some hearsay a dude heard in a bar 76 years ago about their intent

Just stop that. I don't care what Venezuela thoght in 1936. Just let me justify on some countries to build up my industrial capacity and off we go

 

[Simon_9732495]

But focus trees required dev time. Game design time. Integration time. Time that could be spent on anything that is not Denmark or Peru. Time that could be spent on usefull things instead.

Please define useful.

Is it useful to sink endless programming hours in trying to satisfy power players with >1000 hours, that will never be satisfied anyway (and will play the game anyway).

Or is it useful to work on things that can easily be sold to "common" (maybe new) customers that can easier be satisfied, thus enlarging the player base?

(To be clear: I'd like the DEVs to do more of the first. But I want to point out that we are talking about a business here. Working on things you can sell, earns your wages and secures your job.)

 

[Zhein]

I believe, and hope, you are being sarcastic about Tannu Tuva and realise no one actually expects the devs to make them a focus tree.

First message from OP : "Austria is a hot topic".
So he's clearly expecting a focus tree for denmark, austria, peru or whatever.

Please define useful.

Is it useful to sink endless programming hours in trying to satisfy power players with >1000 hours, that will never be satisfied anyway (and will play the game anyway).

Or is it useful to work on things that can easily be sold to "common" (maybe new) customers that can easier be satisfied, thus enlarging the player base?

(To be clear: I'd like the DEVs to do more of the first. But I want to point out that we are talking about a business here. Working on things you can sell, earns your wages and secures your job.)

It's useful to make a working game, with working mechanics, and make those mechanics integrates with the other mechanics you put on board and those focus trees you created, etc.

Take a look at bftb : You can't play historical games anymore with it. It does not integrate with the rest of the game. Turkey, even forced on historical, still joins a faction. Maybe sinking programming hours in trying to make the game actually work is better time spent.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I'd love for more minors to recieve focus trees once Italy and Soviet Union are finished. Theres alot of great choices for minor play even with generic trees and they can only get better. There's alot of gameplay ideas that would do wonderful honestly.


For example, Iran would go great with Germany for roleplay reasons. Germany realizes that the goal for taking the Causcaus may not be the best option. Talking with the Fascist party in Iran, Germany devises a plan. In exchange for complete access to the oil reserves within the middle east, Germany provides lots of support for a Iranian expansion project, annexing the middile east and forming a New Persian Empire.

 

[ThaHoward]

Sweden/Norway was more important to Germany due to iron ore for starters (until fall of France).

Iran and Iraq oil. That is more important than either side in Spain.

The lessons of Spain is actually more on that both sides failed to draw lessons from it.

And yes, I think Spain is interesting and should be represented. But saying Scandinavia and the Middle East was not important during WW2 is a gross misunderstanding

 

[Liquid Ghost]

I get the sentiment of those people who hate minor focus trees taking place before major reworks, but I don't agree with it. I think they don't get what designing and balancing a focus tree for a major entails.

I want Siam and Brazil next. With Siam because we will get the Franco-Thai War and maybe Japan will get a more reliable ally for the Burmese campaigns, and with Brazil because we'll finally get some Smoking Cobras.

Iran and Iraq would be nice too so we can get the actual allied invasions to those countries and so their oil supply can be potentially in play for all sides.