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Gnivom

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The idea to replace static tech cost penalties for non-western countries with a more dynamic system in Rights of Man was a good one. It makes sense that the institutions would speed up technological progress. But simply having them give a tech cost discount would make technologies cost less with time, so later techs would need a greater base cost to compensate. Instead, a system was implemented that make the lack of institutions increase tech cost. This achieves most of the desirable properties, but has a couple of problems.

First, it doesn't quite make sense that Bronze Cannons get harder to research every year because some "Renaissance" has spawned in Italy, especially if you're on the other side of the world. Second, it counteracts the 'rubber band' effect of the neighbor discount, by making countries that lag behind in technology pay significantly more for it after institutions have spawned elsewhere. This latter issue also changes incentives in a "gamey" way, by making players (and preferably the AI) trying to advance most of their research just before the spawn of a new institution.

I propose that this is replaced by a "ahead of time"-ish penalty which I will here call "Lacking Institution". Just like "ahead of time" only applies to technologies whose expected year is ahead of the current year, "Lacking Institution" is applied to technologies whose expected year is ahead of the spawn year of the given Institution. This could either be a direct +50% cost for all such techs, or tick up by (say) 15% per tech. (It could even start ticking up a bit before the spawn of the institution, and it wouldn't have to stop ticking at 50%.)

This solves the problems stated above, because a given tech never increases in cost over time. Countries lagging behind will pay less (due to neighbor discount) instead of more, and it makes a lot more sense to be told that "Bronze Cannons cost 15% more because it expects Renaissance", than to be told that all techs cost 15% more because it's 15 years ago since Renaissance started.

My personal assessment is that this would be fairly easy to implement (just some modifiers and a half-dozen UI changes), but might have to be tuned for game balance (in particular, between western countries and the new world). My guess is that this issue would be smallest if the penalty ticks up uncapped, and Feudalism is expected already from Tech 1.
 
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Gnivom

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Another consideration this would require is what to do with the way institutions affect Great Power rating. It could retain the current formula of course, or similarly use Development * 1.5^(number_of_institutions)
 

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Gnivom said:
I propose that this is replaced by a "ahead of time"-ish penalty which I will here call "Lacking Institution". Just like "ahead of time" only applies to technologies whose expected year is ahead of the current year, "Lacking Institution" is applied to technologies whose expected year is ahead of the spawn year of the given Institution. This could either be a direct +50% cost for all such techs, or tick up by (say) 15% per tech. (It could even start ticking up a bit before the spawn of the institution, and it wouldn't have to stop ticking at 50%.)
How would you suggest dealing with late spawning institutions? Colonialism espacially can really take its time and spawn in the 1530s or 1540s. Would you suggest implementing the modifier by expected year, so that all techs after tech 7 (expexted 1492, tech 8 accepted 1505 after colonialism spawn) automatically get the lacking institution panelty, even if colonialism has not spawned yet? That would be more realistic, but if the panelty ticks up uncapped each tech-level, eastern Asia would have to deal with insane tech panelties (Europe would too, but they can embrace it at least relatively soon), espacially because colonialism and printing press spread so slowly.
 

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Another consideration this would require is what to do with the way institutions affect Great Power rating. It could retain the current formula of course, or similarly use Development * 1.5^(number_of_institutions)


But that's a bad idea even now. Tech cost has nothing to do with relative strength. Its all about tech levels!

Its better to use relative tech level as an indication and not institutions enabled or not. Relative strength should probably be something like 20% per military tech level behind and 10% per diplomatic and administrative tech level behind.
 

Gnivom

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-- THIS IS NOT A DEVELOPER POST --
(I accidentally posted it as such and there are technical issues preventing me from deleting it)

@BadMax_1 Yes, that's what I meant. It's a good point that some institutions are unreliable, and perhaps a reason for in fact capping the tech penalty at 50% per institution. But I don't think capping it or not really affects eastern Asia more than Europe. It certainly would in the current system, but remember that in my system, Asia will be getting the penalties later since they are behind the europeans in tech. So if it takes X years for an institution to reach Asia from Europe, there's sort of an equilibrium where Asian countries are X years behind the Europeans and pay the same cost that the Europeans did X years before. Capping it is just a way to reduce the penalty for being a lot ahead of your supposed tech level. The one case where I think it matters a lot is with Feudalism in the new world.
 
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BadMax_1

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Gnivom said:
Yes, that's what I meant. It's a good point that some institutions are unreliable, and perhaps a reason for in fact capping the tech penalty at 50% per institution. But I don't think capping it or not really affects one region more than another. It certainly would in the current system, but remember that in my system, Asia will be getting the penalties later since they are behind the europeans in tech. So if it takes X years for an institution to reach Asia from Europe, there's sort of an equilibrium where Asian countries are X years behind the Europeans and pay the same cost that the Europeans did X years before. Capping it is just a way to reduce the penalty for being a lot ahead of your supposed tech level. The one case where I think it matters a lot is with Feudalism in the new world.
You're completely right, I hadn't thought of that. Then I would also argue for an uncapped tick since that could maybe also help with the AIs (espacially Ming) tendency to tech up so early that getting innovativeness from tech is almost impossible after the first 50 years.
While I haven't really played in the new world, I think it's better to keep a 50% penalty for all techs, if Feudalism is not embraced. If you let it tick up uncapped starting with tech 1, the new world natives would already have a +75% penalty just to unlock the first idea group. Since the AI colonisers arrive relatively late in the recent patches (or so I read on the forums) such high tech cost would probably only irritate players.
 

Gnivom

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I think it's better to keep a 50% penalty for all techs, if Feudalism is not embraced. If you let it tick up uncapped starting with tech 1, the new world natives would already have a +75% penalty just to unlock the first idea group. Since the AI colonisers arrive relatively late in the recent patches (or so I read on the forums) such high tech cost would probably only irritate players.

That's right. But under the current system, they will pretty soon get a 100% penalty, due to Renaissance. Uncapping it would be a way to compensate for that. IIRC, the native Americans had even worse tech penalties before RoM. So in the end this would be a balance issue for the developers to decide. You could of course also tweak either the 15% or say that Feudalism is expected from tech 2 or 3.
 

BadMax_1

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Gnivom said:
That's right. But under the current system, they will pretty soon get a 100% penalty, due to Renaissance. Uncapping it would be a way to compensate for that. IIRC, the native Americans had even worse tech penalties before RoM. So in the end this would be a balance issue for the developers to decide. You could of course also tweak either the 15% or say that Feudalism is expected from tech 2 or 3.
Another thing I didn't think about, sorry.
In the end it really is a question of developer balancing and tweaking the values appropriately, but - if I haven't forgot to consider something again- your values seem pretty good.
 

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The idea to replace static tech cost penalties for non-western countries with a more dynamic system in Rights of Man was a good one. It makes sense that the institutions would speed up technological progress. But simply having them give a tech cost discount would make technologies cost less with time, so later techs would need a greater base cost to compensate. Instead, a system was implemented that make the lack of institutions increase tech cost. This achieves most of the desirable properties, but has a couple of problems.

First, it doesn't quite make sense that Bronze Cannons get harder to research every year because some "Renaissance" has spawned in Italy, especially if you're on the other side of the world. Second, it counteracts the 'rubber band' effect of the neighbor discount, by making countries that lag behind in technology pay significantly more for it after institutions have spawned elsewhere. This latter issue also changes incentives in a "gamey" way, by making players (and preferably the AI) trying to advance most of their research just before the spawn of a new institution.

I propose that this is replaced by a "ahead of time"-ish penalty which I will here call "Lacking Institution". Just like "ahead of time" only applies to technologies whose expected year is ahead of the current year, "Lacking Institution" is applied to technologies whose expected year is ahead of the spawn year of the given Institution. This could either be a direct +50% cost for all such techs, or tick up by (say) 15% per tech. (It could even start ticking up a bit before the spawn of the institution, and it wouldn't have to stop ticking at 50%.)

This solves the problems stated above, because a given tech never increases in cost over time. Countries lagging behind will pay less (due to neighbor discount) instead of more, and it makes a lot more sense to be told that "Bronze Cannons cost 15% more because it expects Renaissance", than to be told that all techs cost 15% more because it's 15 years ago since Renaissance started.

My personal assessment is that this would be fairly easy to implement (just some modifiers and a half-dozen UI changes), but might have to be tuned for game balance (in particular, between western countries and the new world). My guess is that this issue would be smallest if the penalty ticks up uncapped, and Feudalism is expected already from Tech 1.
I don't understand how this makes any actual real practical difference?
 

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Shoo said:
I don't understand how this makes any actual real practical difference?
There are logical reasons for one. Right now, if an institution spawns, all techs start to get more expensive.
Imagine Florence inventing bronze cannons in 1492. Now suppose Brandenburg is a little behind in military tech and can only research this tech by 1505. Why should researching bronze cannons be 5% more expensive for Brandenburg to research, if colonialism has spawned in 1500? Florence did not need colonialism to research these cannons, then why should anyone else have more problems if colonialism spawned before they researched that tech?
Beside that, it has a few gameplay reasons. For example it somewhat prevents tech downward-spirals due to institutions, since you can still catch up on older tech, although you have not embraced the newest institution.
 

Shoo

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There are logical reasons for one. Right now, if an institution spawns, all techs start to get more expensive.
Imagine Florence inventing bronze cannons in 1492. Now suppose Brandenburg is a little behind in military tech and can only research this tech by 1505. Why should researching bronze cannons be 5% more expensive for Brandenburg to research, if colonialism has spawned in 1500? Florence did not need colonialism to research these cannons, then why should anyone else have more problems if colonialism spawned before they researched that tech?
Beside that, it has a few gameplay reasons. For example it somewhat prevents tech downward-spirals due to institutions, since you can still catch up on older tech, although you have not embraced the newest institution.
oh I guess that makes sense
 

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That's right. But under the current system, they will pretty soon get a 100% penalty, due to Renaissance. Uncapping it would be a way to compensate for that. IIRC, the native Americans had even worse tech penalties before RoM. So in the end this would be a balance issue for the developers to decide. You could of course also tweak either the 15% or say that Feudalism is expected from tech 2 or 3.

If you would allow Natives to spawn and Embrace Feudalism via Dev-pushing then that sounds good.