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TheMeInTeam

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I think that 25% tech cost every 50 years or so is just how it's going to be for Europe now, everyone else will get it a little or a lot worse. I'm not sure any tech group has come out with cheaper tech over the lifetime of the game with the introduction of institutions, except perhaps a player in a rich ROTW country.

I noticed with the Americas that the Middle & South Americans have a huge problem adopting Feudalism, never went to the North. But I was afraid the change was going to make them tech up real quick now, but it seems if they can't get that first one, they are blocked from Renaissance and therefore fall behind a lot.

The Nahuatl, Mayan, and Inti nations virtually never pass their reforms as AI, so they're stuck forever. It's supposedly the native councils that are the problem. Aside from a minor adjustment of "mow down clusters of them at once", however, I'm not seeing how this is a meaningful constraint. Those guys can't keep up with any colonizer in development and they're still 1000's of monarch points behind after reforming, especially if they are doing it before printing press which they'll get comically slowly.

A player there can boost tech a little better than 1.17.1, but an AI?
 
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JoeSteel

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Pretty funny when I saw one of those small pacific islands states actually colonising in southeast Asia instead of Portugal or Spain. Never happen before until this patch.
Ternate, and Tidore always colonize in my games. They usually grab a couple provinces in the Phillipines, or around them in the Moloccus before Euros even arive. This isn't something new to this patch. They get colonists as their national ideas.
 
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maxirage

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Just thought about it, and taking Economic ideas for the dev institution gain in Asia doesn't seem to be worth it. It takes a massive 2800 admin investment before you get the -20% dev discount. Assuming a roughly 2000 point cost per institution, that means you only save 400 points for each one. It'll take 8 institutions before it pays for itself, so it'll never happen.

The only use for Economic I can think of is in some gimmick strats where you try to stack dev cost discounts to make it as low as possible in the endgame, coupling it with Quantity for the -10% policy. Most of the time you'd be better off just investing that admin into expansion.
 

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I do think that the new institution system works poorly, particularly in North America, but even in Europe. Admittedly based only off one game post-expansion. I was playing as England and due to all of the post-col insitutions spawning in Norway (who weren't doing very much) I was tending to go down to -25% tech a lot, that was probably my mistake.

However given that, I went for the new world and got my first colonies in Casco and Mass in 1533, getting a border with a few native groups, by 1554 several of those not even bordering me (I had invaded some of those that had) had adopted Feudalism and Renaissance, they subsequently adopted the Printing Press a couple of years after I did, Now, this isn't just a little ahistorical, it makes no sense. Firsty most of the Woodland Tribes of the North-East were at best Pastoralist (albiet irregularly nomadic) or at worst established on Nomadic principles. Furthermore many of those groups are recorded (albiet by Europeans and later Westernised Natives) as having treated European technology as magic, even when they realised it was not many outright rejected European cultural and political institutions for decades / centuries post-contact. All of this should mean it should be rare for first-contact to immediately jump natives groups up in tech. Bear in mind the status of many non-Western groups in 1821, they shouldn't just be a little behind, but centuries and it should be the role of a clever human player to overcome these near insurmountable historical handicaps.
Wow that's just... So ignorant. Native Americans did not think Europeans were magical or gods, and they adopted European technology extremely quickly, because duh, guns are useful. The biggest handicaps for natives wasn't technology, but their lack of numbers and organization. You can't exactly build an industrial economy with just a few thousand people- they were screwed demographically, and politically, not because they somehow were too stupid to adopt modern technology and adapt. Horses for example weren't introduced to the Lakota until the eighteenth century, yet they quickly became master horsemen, which together with firearms revolutionized their society, allowing them to hunt big game efficiently and dominate their neighbors. Yet their population in 1800 was about 8,000. If you want to nerf natives, nerf their manpower, not their tech, because once contact with Europeans is made, rapid advancement is inevitable.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Just thought about it, and taking Economic ideas for the dev institution gain in Asia doesn't seem to be worth it. It takes a massive 2800 admin investment before you get the -20% dev discount. Assuming a roughly 2000 point cost per institution, that means you only save 400 points for each one. It'll take 8 institutions before it pays for itself, so it'll never happen.

The only use for Economic I can think of is in some gimmick strats where you try to stack dev cost discounts to make it as low as possible in the endgame, coupling it with Quantity for the -10% policy. Most of the time you'd be better off just investing that admin into expansion.

Economic remains a more MP-centric group with good military policies (5% disc, 10% arty combat), rather than something you'd take just to get institutions. It does rake in cash too and helps with manufactories, but it's hard to justify taking it when going heavy expansion in SP.
 

Verenti

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I feel like people are overreacting to this tech change. I've read everything from tech spreeds to fast or not fast enough.

Yes, and to an analytical mind this mind be indicative of where the problem is localised, not evidence that there actually is no problem.
 
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Wookie1

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Wow that's just... So ignorant. Native Americans did not think Europeans were magical or gods, and they adopted European technology extremely quickly, because duh, guns are useful. The biggest handicaps for natives wasn't technology, but their lack of numbers and organization. You can't exactly build an industrial economy with just a few thousand people- they were screwed demographically, and politically, not because they somehow were too stupid to adopt modern technology and adapt. Horses for example weren't introduced to the Lakota until the eighteenth century, yet they quickly became master horsemen, which together with firearms revolutionized their society, allowing them to hunt big game efficiently and dominate their neighbors. Yet their population in 1800 was about 8,000. If you want to nerf natives, nerf their manpower, not their tech, because once contact with Europeans is made, rapid advancement is inevitable.

I think its a shame you have decided to call me ignorant without understanding what I wrote, I will clarify what I meant. In the years directly post contact (and I that was the focus of my post, not the 18th-19th centuries) there were a number of native groups who it seems believed European's to hold magical powers or at the very least did not directly adopt it immediately (although these matters are rather difficult to discover when you are discussing societies that leave us relatively little in the way of written sources, sidenote in my game the Potawatomi have the printing press in the 1590's, this being a people with no agreed written system into the 1880's, but I digress). For evidence backing this look at early contact period artefacts such as those depicting early Dutch explorers in a similar fashion to local deities, or James Axtell's Through Another Glass Darkly (New York, 1988) which formed the basis of my earlier comments.

Regarding Muskets, the first record I've been able to find of their use by native's was by the Pawnee in the 1720's, this being of course 180~ years after their first contact in 1541 who had regular trade links with the French from the 17th century. I don't quite see how that doesn't reinforce my point that technological adoption by Native American's was slow and often patchy (certainly not chasing down Europe in the institutional or technological stakes). Furthermore, once again referencing Axtell (and others, I just happen to have access to that one at home) the native peoples frequently saw little to envy in the European way of doing things, for example see those taken to Paris in the 16th-18th centuries who expressed opposition to Feudalism, the obvious poverty of some within French society and that their dwellings were fixed and wasteful of space, I am willing to accept that they may be being used by European writers as convenient mouthpieces and so you can discount that if you please, however I maintain my point.

Coming onto population EUIV doesn't simulate the Virgin Soil Plagues (probably for good reason as that would be basically game over for natives), so it needs to do at least something to reflect that and I feel that perhaps making it hard to adopt institutions quickly from the European's would make sense, or at the very least allow you to choose as the colonial nation whether you want to share all your ideas.

I hope that has clarified my point, I would certainly agree with yours about the much later period, there was certainly direct adoption of guns and horses and they had a big effect. They also would have had little reason to see their contemporaries as anything other than men.
 
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Well, you are too eurocentric. I suggest you to watch this and this. Also, you can also watch this, but this is just about the Renaissance. But first two videos can help you to understand, why it is false to think that ROTW countries were less developed.

Holy cow, the Abbasids and the Chinese fought a battle in the 8th century (2nd video, around 9 min mark)? I had no idea!
 
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I'm not using him as reliable source. I'm using him to show some basics.

In that case, excuse my sudden outburst of emotion. I'm an academic historian, you see (with a master's degree, working on my PhD), I have a special hatred towards the guy.
 
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I feel like people are overreacting to this tech change. I've read everything from tech spreeds to fast or not fast enough.

I feel like people are complaining that it doesn't spread fast enough within Europe. But as soon as it starts getting into far eastern Europe, North Africa, and the middle east, then it spreads too fast.
 
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Holy cow, the Abbasids and the Chinese fought a battle in the 8th century (2nd video, around 9 min mark)? I had no idea!

Indeed, the Chinese garrison sortied in response to Turkish requests for intervention against the encroaching shadow of Islam invasions. Unfortunately due to the attempted military coup by An Lushan, a Turk of all things, China had to withdraw their support and let the Turkish culture be exterminated by Islam. Perhaps one of the most important events that shaped the religious landscape of central Asia.
 
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Using John Green as a reliable source. Positively disgusting. He does such a fact cherry picking and wishful thinking and retconning, that I'm sure he'll make a vid one day, stating that the Soviets were good guys or something. Dear sir, you are wrong, your opinion is invalid and you should be ashamed of yourself, sir. Have a nice day, sir.

Can you please give some examples of what you are describing rather than a broad-brushed and vague set of dismissals?

The show is 'crash course' world history and goes into about as much detail as an undergraduate world history survey course.
 
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In that case, excuse my sudden outburst of emotion. I'm an academic historian, you see (with a master's degree, working on my PhD), I have a special hatred towards the guy.

I understand, why you would feel this way, but, for most people, it is good enough source to start.
 
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Indeed, the Chinese garrison sortied in response to Turkish requests for intervention against the encroaching shadow of Islam invasions. Unfortunately due to the attempted military coup by An Lushan, a Turk of all things, China had to withdraw their support and let the Turkish culture be exterminated by Islam. Perhaps one of the most important events that shaped the religious landscape of central Asia.
What? Turks still exist today, whether you're talking about Anatolian Turks, Turkmen, or Uyghurs of East Turkestan. Islam eradicated their culture as much as Christianity eradicated Assyrian or Egyptian culture, which is not at all.
 
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Samurai in the 19th century were nothing like samurai in the 16th century, it's ridiculous to use that as proof they didn't modernize. Japan in the 19th century had literacy rates at similar levels to Europe, a thriving domestic economy, and a sophisticated bureaucracy. People didn't have guns because the government banned them, not because they were too stupid to make them- Japan was once the world's leading producer of firearms. And look what happens when Europeans come knocking on Japan's door- they built a modern army and state within a couple of decades and become one of the world's leading economies, with a military able to go toe-to-toe with a European great power like Russia.

I don't recall the Japanese banning guns. Maybe among the populace, but not the Military.

The Japanese made extensive use of firearms in their invasion of Korea in the 1500s.
 
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For Ming, the best way would be to take over regions of those institutes, developed regions and hope it pops up or colonise Africa and hope it gets spread. Accepting events that help spread it also helps even if it is ill moral.
 

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I don't recall the Japanese banning guns. Maybe among the populace, but not the Military.

The Japanese made extensive use of firearms in their invasion of Korea in the 1500s.

They did, east Asia went backwards a few decades after the Imjin war.

18th century Japan army would get wrecked by Imjin war army, same goes for China too.
 
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