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morningside

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I am glad to see a thread where people complain about new tech system. I see some people like the new system which makes EU4 more like CIV where anything is possible and that is fine but I like EU4 when I can see more plausible scenarios play out and that is fine too. Problem is these two are totally different games and the second alternative is gone now which means we need modders more than ever now.
 
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Well, you are too eurocentric. I suggest you to watch this and this. Also, you can also watch this, but this is just about the Renaissance. But first two videos can help you to understand, why it is false to think that ROTW countries were less developed.

Using John Green as a reliable source. Positively disgusting. He does such a fact cherry picking and wishful thinking and retconning, that I'm sure he'll make a vid one day, stating that the Soviets were good guys or something. Dear sir, you are wrong, your opinion is invalid and you should be ashamed of yourself, sir. Have a nice day, sir.
 
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Oh, I actually saw that in about 2 campaigns the last patch, and by that I mean, decently colonizing a lot. But quite a few campaigns before Europe got to South East Asia and started conquering, I have noticed them still colonizing quite a bit.

Most of the rest of the world was less developed though. When on British gunboat can practically take over an entire African Kingdom, you know that in the real world, the gameplay was very unbalanced.
 
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I am glad to see a thread where people complain about new tech system. I see some people like the new system which makes EU4 more like CIV where anything is possible and that is fine but I like EU4 when I can see more plausible scenarios play out and that is fine too. Problem is these two are totally different games and the second alternative is gone now which means we need modders more than ever now.
Portugal conquering Mali in 1500 is not plausible.
 
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I am glad to see a thread where people complain about new tech system. I see some people like the new system which makes EU4 more like CIV where anything is possible and that is fine but I like EU4 when I can see more plausible scenarios play out and that is fine too. Problem is these two are totally different games and the second alternative is gone now which means we need modders more than ever now.

This game is meant to be a playground, it's marketed as a playground, this is what paradox intended. This isn't a history sim, it's never been a history sim. It's has nothing to do with being like civ and everything to do with making this more like how paradox intends this game to be, a playground, a sandbox. This game is a sandbox in a historic setting. This new tech system is the best change paradox has ever made to eu4.
 
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There is a difference what we force upon the AI and what we force upon the player. The game exists to gratify the player and as such, there shouldn't be unnecessary restrictions on the player that would inhibit the player from having fun. However, the AI should strive to maintain the verisimilitude of the game by providing the player experiences that reflect history.

I will just say I'm not seeing how this made the AI stronger than before. I'm playing Candar expanding into the Persian region with all institutions almost instantly embraced. By 1580 everything east of Khorasan is still 230% tech cost.
 
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I will just say I'm not seeing how this made the AI stronger than before. I'm playing Candar expanding into the Persian region with all institutions almost instantly embraced. By 1580 everything east of Khorasan is still 230% tech cost.

Maybe it has to do specifically with spreading institutions through ports. Because when I played the game as Italy, (or whenever I play the game as a exploration power) I tend to take ports. I avoid inland territories in general, because its easier to control global trade if you control the ocean. But if institutions spread quicker to and from ports, then it would explain why in my game almost every country in the world modernised, but Russia lagged behind even when Poland and Lithuania didn't.

If it is only a problem with ports, it would still seem to be a problem.
 
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Maybe embracing an institution shouldn't make it spread faster in your remaining provinces? That would at least slow the rate of the spread down a bit, probably by a lot actually. From what I've seen there's no real benefit to having institutions spread after they've been embraced, so it wouldn't change anything else.
 
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Maybe embracing an institution shouldn't make it spread faster in your remaining provinces?

It does, massively so.

The biggest problem with institutions is Colonialism, it spreads ridiculously easy (seriously Paradox, Waldseemüller made his famous map in 1507. How do you justify Germany getitng colonialism AFTER the Printing Press?)
 
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Maybe embracing an institution shouldn't make it spread faster in your remaining provinces? That would at least slow the rate of the spread down a bit, probably by a lot actually. From what I've seen there's no real benefit to having institutions spread after they've been embraced, so it wouldn't change anything else.

True point. The institution spreading faster, after you spent money and/or development to spawn, only helps your neighbors. This so frustrating that you do all the work and everyone else gets the benefits. If anything, all institutions should require some sort of 'buildings' requirements to spread in provinces. This way you could control the spread slightly and the AI/Player would need to be strategic in what they build.
 
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I do find it kind of funny honestly. There are some threads/people complaining about it being far to difficult and to much of a nerf for the ROTW. While other threads/people complain about it being far to easy and modernizes the ROTW to much.

I wonder if it is actually either one of those, or perhaps peoples playthroughs just keeps going one way instead of the other.

This is because the player has such an immense impact on the spread of institutions.
For example I had india more advanced than europe due to having trade colonies there and they got the institutions significantly faster than the majority of europe (there's still some OPM's who haven't got the renaissance in 1640...).

If anything they need to reduce the speed and spread of institutions via trade companies or make it so that embracing an institution doesn't immediately give overseas provinces the ticking modifier.

Do Trading Company provinces stop institutions from spreading?
No they speed it up by 10% from what I saw.
 
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The first video about Zheng He is actually an argument in favour of europeans. Zheng He sailed by the coast. Take a look at the routes that he travelled. Always by the coast. And the routes where he stays away from the coast, in the Indian Ocean, were well known and explored by the Arabs before. The innovation of the Portuguese and the Spanish was the ability to sail across the oceans, against the currents and the winds. I don't deny that the chinese made tons of discoveries before the europeans and were technologically more advanced in several fields by the early 1500s, but sailing in particular was not one of them.

Still on the subject, Leif Erikson also discovered America 500 years before Columbus, but again, he sailed near the coast, and what was long term impact of his discovery? None. So this is not really about Europe > World, but the fact that technical developments themselves are necessary buy not sufficient. Institutions and incentives are fundamental for progress, and that's what the game tries to model. The fact is, Europeans in the XVI century had the right institutions and incentives to lead further technological developments, and it created a snowball effect which culminated in XIX century imperialism. To throw all that away and to say that anybody else was equally likely to achieve it, as if this process was random, is to spit in the face of history.

Again, this has nothing to do with the intelligence of individuals, or the sophistication of societies, it is simply to acknowledge the fact that there were reasons why Europe dominated this period in history, and the game should try to model that. If all the nations in the world always end up with the same institutions by the end of the game, or technologically on par, something is not right. And this is not railroading either, because a player in a different geography should have the capacity to change history, but that should not be simple to achieve. If anyone can do it, you're not so special, and it decreases the player reward.
Even more than that, it has to do with . . . wheat. No, seriously. Wheat. And cultivated animals. And other stuff--aww, Hell, people should just read Guns, Germs, and Steel. There really is a good reason Europe outpaced ROTW during crucial moments, and luckily, it has nothing to do with any sort of racial superiority nonsense. (Take THAT, Nazis!)
 
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Maybe there should be say a 5-10-15 or so year cooldown after embracing an institution before you're able to embrace the next? This would mean it would take a generation or two to go from tribal up to the enlightenment even with a neighbour who had it, instead of them all being embraced simultaneously. Or maybe a penalty with a decay, so if you got two arriving at once you could do them immediately after each other, but a third would take longer, fourth longer still etc.

Also at the moment it seems technically possible to embrace say printing press while you don't have the renaissance. Perhaps all the institutions should rely on having the earlier ones, in which case it would cause neighbouring nations to slowly climb up the ladder instead of skipping straight to the top level available, and being denied an earlier institution would keep those nations extremely limped technologically and deny its spread through areas that haven't embraced the predecessors?

This is really helpful.

Something like that might work. You could also stop institution spread at all if you miss a certain tech. For example you need at least 2/2/2 for Feudalism to spread, 4/4/4 for Rennasaince to start spreading; 7/7/7 for colonialism etc. You coulld also add that each tech penalty only start at a certain tech level. For example colonialism tech penalty starts at technology 6 and above but everything which is even farther behind is unaffected..

So is this.
 
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firecage

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This is because the player has such an immense impact on the spread of institutions.
For example I had india more advanced than europe due to having trade colonies there and they got the institutions significantly faster than the majority of europe (there's still some OPM's who haven't got the renaissance in 1640...).

If anything they need to reduce the speed and spread of institutions via trade companies or make it so that embracing an institution doesn't immediately give overseas provinces the ticking modifier.


No they speed it up by 10% from what I saw.

I do wonder one thing though. How the Vic2 converter is gonna work now with Institutions.(As a side note. It has a pretty good westernization system)
 

raikaria

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Pretty funny when I saw one of those small pacific islands states actually colonising in southeast Asia instead of Portugal or Spain. Never happen before until this patch.

Thing is those two states get an early coloniser in their NI's.

They just never used it before.
 
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Mortheim

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Using John Green as a reliable source. Positively disgusting. He does such a fact cherry picking and wishful thinking and retconning, that I'm sure he'll make a vid one day, stating that the Soviets were good guys or something. Dear sir, you are wrong, your opinion is invalid and you should be ashamed of yourself, sir. Have a nice day, sir.

I'm not using him as reliable source. I'm using him to show some basics.
 
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Wookie1

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I do think that the new institution system works poorly, particularly in North America, but even in Europe. Admittedly based only off one game post-expansion. I was playing as England and due to all of the post-col insitutions spawning in Norway (who weren't doing very much) I was tending to go down to -25% tech a lot, that was probably my mistake.

However given that, I went for the new world and got my first colonies in Casco and Mass in 1533, getting a border with a few native groups, by 1554 several of those not even bordering me (I had invaded some of those that had) had adopted Feudalism and Renaissance, they subsequently adopted the Printing Press a couple of years after I did, Now, this isn't just a little ahistorical, it makes no sense. Firsty most of the Woodland Tribes of the North-East were at best Pastoralist (albiet irregularly nomadic) or at worst established on Nomadic principles. Furthermore many of those groups are recorded (albiet by Europeans and later Westernised Natives) as having treated European technology as magic (at least for the earliest period), even when they realised it was not many still outright rejected European cultural and political institutions for decades / centuries post-contact. All of this should mean it should be rare for first-contact to immediately jump natives groups up in tech. Bear in mind the status of many non-Western groups in 1821, they shouldn't just be a little behind, but centuries and it should be the role of a clever human player to overcome these near insurmountable historical handicaps.

Edit: Since people are clearly in disagreement with me, please see my second post down the page in which I try to clarify things and provide a little of my sourcing
 
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TheMeInTeam

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We're not at a history argument any longer. I've seen so many proposals that would make natives unplayable, not in the difficulty sense, but in that you'd have to just sit there almost all game long.

In a game that created two expansions around them, that's not going to work. Despite all their alleged advantages in this thread, they're still in a major hole pointwise if you do the math.
 
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Dnote

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I do think that the new institution system works poorly, particularly in North America, but even in Europe. Admittedly based only off one game post-expansion. I was playing as England and due to all of the post-col insitutions spawning in Norway (who weren't doing very much) I was tending to go down to -25% tech a lot, that was probably my mistake.

However given that, I went for the new world and got my first colonies in Casco and Mass in 1533, getting a border with a few native groups, by 1554 several of those not even bordering me (I had invaded some of those that had) had adopted Feudalism and Renaissance, they subsequently adopted the Printing Press a couple of years after I did, Now, this isn't just a little ahistorical, it makes no sense. Firsty most of the Woodland Tribes of the North-East were at best Pastoralist (albiet irregularly nomadic) or at worst established on Nomadic principles. Furthermore many of those groups are recorded (albiet by Europeans and later Westernised Natives) as having treated European technology as magic, even when they realised it was not many outright rejected European cultural and political institutions for decades / centuries post-contact. All of this should mean it should be rare for first-contact to immediately jump natives groups up in tech. Bear in mind the status of many non-Western groups in 1821, they shouldn't just be a little behind, but centuries and it should be the role of a clever human player to overcome these near insurmountable historical handicaps.

I think that 25% tech cost every 50 years or so is just how it's going to be for Europe now, everyone else will get it a little or a lot worse. I'm not sure any tech group has come out with cheaper tech over the lifetime of the game with the introduction of institutions, except perhaps a player in a rich ROTW country.

I noticed with the Americas that the Middle & South Americans have a huge problem adopting Feudalism, never went to the North. But I was afraid the change was going to make them tech up real quick now, but it seems if they can't get that first one, they are blocked from Renaissance and therefore fall behind a lot.
 
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