Institution not spawning but research penalty? 25 yrs late!!!

[_Bachus_]

Why is that a bad thing?
Is was common to buy Adm and maybe Dip tech 9 and 10 with 5-15% penalty and then, with 3 ideagroups unlocked, the pressure to tech up Adm and Dip is alot less and you can let the cost accumulate until you either get Colo or decide to dev for it.
For me the new system does the exact opposite. It feels like the game is telling me when and where i have to stop buying tech and wait or dev for the next institution.
Instead of the 5 and 18% which tech 9 and 10 had previously if you got unlucky and had Colo spawn right in 1500
you now have 15 and 30% every time. No exception. No variation.

To clarify I think the change as concept is a good thing. But implementation is not working. AIs completely don't understand it and they are 50 years worse because of it in 50% of games. They lost ideas, lost even tech, colonize slower, conquer slower, have more problem with money etc. It's like with estate change. They made it and even now AIs don't use them. But at least it didn't make them worse in a sense. Tech change makes them worse because they don't have ideas, and points for other things in the same timeframe as before. The PDX fault is that they didn't see this coming. Like plan of this patch wasn't to make AIs 2 times worse but it happened. Now you seriously need to play on very hard to get the same difficulty as normal before. And very hard was scrapped. There is no very hard anymore in the game because very hard is now on old normal level only.

Tech change had huge impact on all AIs across whole game. They shouldn't approach it with new studio. They overestimated and believed they can predict all this code with new studio. And they clearly can't.

And is this a game-breaking bug? No. We had much worse. I will live and play with settings that hides this botch-up. But you never know when one more bug will break the EU4 community. Like the system in which you release mechnics rework in DLC and next patch you need to completely rework it because it breaks the game, shows how bad things are. And to makes matter worse the rework in next patch can make the old DLC completely irrelevant, pissing off people at the same time that bought the previous DLCs. This will blow up eventually.

 

[EarlKonrad]

If the institution does not spawn im getting a penalty against which i can do nothing.
Thats terrible design.

No point arguing with people that can't understand bad design when they see it. Worse yet there are those just judge game design by the metric of "does it feel historically correct to me?".

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

I wonder about the experience of VH players. With the only very few games I played I haven't seen anything weird regarding tech level and colonialism spawn.

Generally, I always found it very weird that the AI seems to prioritize tech over ideas. It would probably be a clearer rule to have it the other way round. Might not be optimal in some cases, especially regarding military tech, but as a workable rule of thumb it should work better, especially now as tech can only get cheaper over time. That would probably solve a lot, of course generally AI should be less eager to buy tech with the penalty.
Colonialism should already be solved by fixing the AI prioritization, maybe it could also be tweaked to be more likely to appear when the conditions are fulfilled, to reverse the change from 1.31.X that it requires you to have a colony instead of just discovering the Americas as it was before or to give fallbacks after 1505 or 1510 to make it more likely to appear then.



All in all, it seems it just requires some fixing and then it works as intended. Maybe it could then still be discussed i fthe effect is considered too harsh also on players, maybe the effect should be pushed back one tech as well.

 

[Oof]

I wonder about the experience of VH players. With the only very few games I played I haven't seen anything weird regarding tech level and colonialism spawn.

Generally, I always found it very weird that the AI seems to prioritize tech over ideas. It would probably be a clearer rule to have it the other way round. Might not be optimal in some cases, especially regarding military tech, but as a workable rule of thumb it should work better, especially now as tech can only get cheaper over time. That would probably solve a lot, of course generally AI should be less eager to buy tech with the penalty.
Colonialism should already be solved by fixing the AI prioritization, maybe it could also be tweaked to be more likely to appear when the conditions are fulfilled, to reverse the change from 1.31.X that it requires you to have a colony instead of just discovering the Americas as it was before or to give fallbacks after 1505 or 1510 to make it more likely to appear then.



All in all, it seems it just requires some fixing and then it works as intended. Maybe it could then still be discussed i fthe effect is considered too harsh also on players, maybe the effect should be pushed back one tech as well.

Colonialism definitely can do with a fix as you recommend but the problemen isn't just Colonialism. It's every institution level because of the penalty which the AI cant cope with.

Every time an institution spawns later than the set date, AI countries will spent huge amounts of mp to get to the next tech level. Overtime they, even some major countries, will fall behind on the player 2-3 levels easily. Just check some random saved games after 1700 or 1750. And TAG the countries that are behind and have a look at what really happens

 

[Siddy00]

FYI, from the patch notes for the 1.32.2 beta (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...in-beta-patch-now-available-on-steam.1499457/)

- Improved AI powerspending priorities to primarily encourage lowering inflation and prioritize ideas higher.

 

[Zelius]

Well, had time for 1 quick observer game in 1.32.2 beta:

So, I guess problem solved?

Still very low spending by AIs on advisors though, most have all 3 slots empty, a handful of the wealthy AIs have 1 or 2 level 1s at steep discount. Ming tanking meritocracy and spamming temples.

Spoiler

Colonialism definitely can do with a fix as you recommend but the problemen isn't just Colonialism. It's every institution level because of the penalty which the AI cant cope with.

Every time an institution spawns later than the set date, AI countries will spent huge amounts of mp to get to the next tech level. Overtime they, even some major countries, will fall behind on the player 2-3 levels easily. Just check some random saved games after 1700 or 1750. And TAG the countries that are behind and have a look at what really happens

The thing is, the other institutions spawn on time, or with a tiny delay. And AI also spent a lot on tech in previous versions too, since there is an excess of points when not expanding like a player can.

 

[_Bachus_]

And AI also spent a lot on tech in previous versions too, since there is an excess of points when not expanding like a player can.

But tech is more expensive than before. You get penalties right away instead of accrued cost. So AI takes tech at the same moment than in previous versions but they get tech penalties in certain cases right away instead of accrued cost that was much smaller at start. And then before the next round of ahead of time expires, AI could get to institution and embrace it. I get not all, but as a whole AIs spent less on tech previously. And those points have to come from somewhere if they pay more. They came from not taking ideas and other things. That's why they become way slower than before the change.

As a whole, current tech system is completely different. Before you were forced to chase tech becase with institution spawn you were getting penalties that were increasing with time. Now you get techs that are decreasing in cost the more you wait and there is no difference if institution spawns or not. Completely different systems and players adapts to those changes right away. But AIs worked on previous prioritization in new system. I'm glad there is some AI prioritization change in the works. We'll see what it does. But chasing tech became subpar strategy, except some military crucial ones and the ones opening ideas in admin or one or two diplomatic. Other than that you can sit without taking tech for decades. It was not posible before because you would get destroyed by penalties if you didn't get those techs fast and the next institution would spawn getting you into more trouble. Now you can ignore institutions completely which is kind of funny.

 

[Zelius]

But tech is more expensive than before. You get penalties right away instead of accrued cost. So AI takes tech at the same moment than in previous versions but they get tech penalties in certain cases right away instead of accrued cost that was much smaller at start. And then before the next round of ahead of time expires, AI could get to institution and embrace it. I get not all, but as a whole AIs spent less on tech previously. And those points have to come from somewhere if they pay more. They came from not taking ideas and other things. That's why they become way slower than before the change.

If we assume the institutions spawn on time, and it seems to be the intent currently to balance it so that it does, here's how I see it:

- The AI is quite happy to eat ahead-of-time penalties anyway which are a significant chunk of tech cost, especially for European powers;

- Putting that aside, if the AI takes each tech 'on time', we can see that there is a 13 year gap between each tech level for most of the game, increasing to 15 near the end. Therefore if we assume the +15/+30 levels occur at about the right time compared to an ASAP institution spawn under the previous system, the real comparison is between a +15%, +30%, +50% new vs +13%, +26%, +39% under the older system. On the 4th tech or further, >50 years have passed, both get the +50% penalty cost for not embracing the institution so it's moot.
Again, I don't have a table of techs/on-time-year/institution-requirement in front of me so it could vary, but that's only a ~6% average extra cost before it becomes the same for both systems. But if that is truly an issue there is the simple fix of moving along which tech requires which institution, and that might actually make it cheaper than under the previous system!

As a whole, current tech system is completely different. Before you were forced to chase tech becase with institution spawn you were getting penalties that were increasing with time. Now you get techs that are decreasing in cost the more you wait and there is no difference if institution spawns or not. Completely different systems and players adapts to those changes right away. But AIs worked on previous prioritization in new system. I'm glad there is some AI prioritization change in the works. We'll see what it does. But chasing tech became subpar strategy, except some military crucial ones and the ones opening ideas in admin or one or two diplomatic. Other than that you can sit without taking tech for decades. It was not posible before because you would get destroyed by penalties if you didn't get those techs fast and the next institution would spawn getting you into more trouble. Now you can ignore institutions completely which is kind of funny.

I mean, techs have benefits, and at the very least you want MIL up to date and so you will have to deal with corruption from 'unbalanced research', but I do appreciate the option of ignoring ADM/DIP and conquering half of Asia before admin efficiency from tech becomes available. With regards to AI we'll see what 1.32.2 changes do (or I guess others will, I will be busy.. RIP).

 

[_Bachus_]

I mean, techs have benefits,

But you're getting those benefits only later. Is this time between worth rushing +15%, +30%, + 50% mana cost increase? And if you wait you get discount -5%, -10% etc from neighbours. The benefits from techs in this time frame when you wait will never return that mana. 90% of tech are useless within like 10-20 years. Yes there are some that are good and worth rushing but there aren't many of them. Before you couldn't wait much because next institution would spawn and tech cost was connected to spawn, so all tech would increase in cost even those old techs. Now it is unrelated. If you're behind in tech you don't care about any institution spawn because it doesn't affect you at all now.

And mil tech are most important at start. Later each increase from mil tech has less and less impact. Mil techs only matter if you planning even wars in given time period. In other cases you can win wars with 2-3 mil tech behind. And if you have 2 mil ideas like offensive and quality, mil tech difference doesn't matter that much at all if your enemy doesn't have them also. So I found that you can easily stay behind in mil tech in 1.32 also in certain periods of the game. But I agree mil tech is the least where you want to stay behind.

As for unbalanced research you simply avoid it by staying behind in admin / diplo by example 3-4 techs, and with mil 1-2 techs. And when you need some jump you simply catch up for those periods. 1.32 made also innovativeness useless.

 

[Vulkandrache]

1.32 made also innovativeness useless.

How so?
Its easier to get then ever before.

 

[_Bachus_]

How so?
Its easier to get then ever before.

Because you getting inno to what rush +50% tech increase? You will get discounts to tech the more you simply wait without any inno. You getting inno to spend more mana now. Before you were at least getting inno to rush tech at normal prices. So you can't rush tech with institution spawn when those cost are +1% , +2% etc. Tech cost are now constant and from start. So you're rushing tech into this overpriced system.

Inno ok maybe not useless but it is significantly less valuable than it was. There are other ways that you can get cheaper techs. You simply wait. And you can't wait with inno because you simply lose it. So it's either waiting without inno or rushing with inno. I'm choosing to wait in most cases now so probably never will take any inno. You're taking inno to save on mana. But you need to take tech ahead of AIs. And guess what AIs are rushing into those overpriced tech even more than you. So you will need to take them as well or lose inno. You're losing mana with inno now not gaining. It's another unintended consequence of the change.

 

[Vulkandrache]

You're losing mana with inno now not gaining. It's another unintended consequence of the change.

With most start initialy you are teching up way faster than the AI because of advisors and better management.
By the time the AI starts taking tech 8+ years (lol) ahead of time im sitting at 50 Inno.
The double Inno is a crazy change and the grace period being 1 year instead of 3 months is a big deal aswell.

 

[_Bachus_]

With most start initialy you are teching up way faster than the AI because of advisors and better management.
By the time the AI starts taking tech 8+ years (lol) ahead of time im sitting at 50 Inno.
The double Inno is a crazy change and the grace period being 1 year instead of 3 months is a big deal aswell.

But what you're doing with that inno? buying +50% tech? The point is that before the change you would buy +1% , +2% tech etc. That's why I'm saying inno is way weaker now because the system changed. Tech is now most expensive at start and gets cheaper with time. It was other way around previously. It was the cheapest at start and more expensive with time. Inno worked in previous system well. Not when you get tech cheaper with time. Why rush it except some fringe cases? You simply rushing the most expensive time when to get tech. Yeah it will be cases when it's useful to rush techs but as a whole nowdays tech cost is decreasing with time so rushin it is less useful than before. Before you sort of rush into the time when tech cost was cheapest. So inno got you value. Now inno gets you illusion of value.

 

[CrazyMe]

But what you're doing with that inno? buying +50% tech? The point is that before the change you would buy +1% , +2% tech etc. That's why I'm saying inno is way weaker now because the system changed. Tech is now most expensive at start and gets cheaper with time. It was other way around previously. It was the cheapest at start and more expensive with time. Inno worked in previous system well. Not when you get tech cheaper with time. Why rush it except some fringe cases? You simply rushing the most expensive time when to get tech. Yeah it will be cases when it's useful to rush techs but as a whole nowdays tech cost is decreasing with time so rushin it is less useful than before. Before you sort of rush into the time when tech cost was cheapest. So inno got you value. Now inno gets you illusion of value.

I hope you do know that innovativeness gives ALL power costs reduction and also slightly reduces traditions decay, and that tech ahead of time increases production and trade efficiency and reduces corruption, apart from a lot of other positive things like buildings, units, various modifiers, opened idea slots etc. Your statement about useless tech and innovativeness does not sound right to me. In some cases/periods it indeed makes sense to wait with tech and prioritize other things, but this is surely not the general rule, even in the new patch.

 

[_Bachus_]

I hope you do know that innovativeness gives ALL power costs reduction and also slightly reduces traditions decay, and that tech ahead of time increases production and trade efficiency and reduces corruption, apart from a lot of other positive things like buildings, units, various modifiers, opened idea slots etc. Your statement about useless tech and innovativeness does not sound right to me. In some cases/periods it indeed makes sense to wait with tech and prioritize other things, but this is surely not the general rule, even in the new patch.

my full statement was about it being weaker after the changes vs before, and not being useless per say. what you pointed out worked the same before. Tech changes elimated the need for chasing tech from institution -> before you would just get another institution that would bump the cost of all old tech. Now old tech isn't affected by new institutions at all. If I'm sitting behind I don't care if any institution will spawn in next decade or so. It won't affect my tech at all now because I'm behind and cost of tech is not connected to institution. That was completely different in the past. All tech got those penalties so you had to rush tech. And inno was good with rushing tech. Now you are even encouraged by the game to stay behind. And if you stay behind inno is way way weaker because you getting into dropping inno from being behind alone. Yes there are still cases when you can play inno but there is no point denaying that changes in 1.32 made inno weaker, simpy because they eliminated the penalties from being behind alone. You're no longer crushed by institution penalties. You can stay behind and pay no increased cost when taking techs. There is no penalties anymore.

Yes you need to worry about getting crush by neighbours but it's is possible to not take techs and wait for institutions and get being behind neigbours modifer that makes tech cheaper. In the past you would not be able to do that because new institution would spawn and it would increase the cost of all techs. Game has changed massively. The more you wait the less you pay for tech now. It's no longer optimal to rush tech in all cases. In fact in most cases it's better to be behind, mana speaking of course. You'll get more mana by waiting.

 

[Vulkandrache]

play inno but there is no point denaying that changes in 1.32 made inno weaker

The only thing the new system changed about Inno is that you now almost always have it decay.
Because the techlevel <-> Institution relationship is all messed up.
There are several cases where you fall behind in tech and lose Inno because the next tech is current in like 1547 but its already 15% because
it wants the Institution that spawns 3 years later.
The balance here is comlete whack. The first tech an institution should block is the one ~26 years later (2 tech cycles).
In other words Colo should be required for tech 11 not 9.

I have no idea how you get any sort of "whatever fall behind" attitude out of this.
The new system makes me feel alot more rushed to get institutions to get tech because im sitting here with my points filling up
having to make the decision to tech with 15% penalty or dev.
This is especialy pronounced since that happens several times for the ideagroup tech. Taking those any later than absolutely nessecary is unacceptable.
Tech 5, tech 10. Even tech 14, even though is farther out, the printing press is slow going, so you need to plan even more ahead now.

The few games ive tried i ended up teching 9 and 10 with penalty to get the ideagroup because thats more important and more applicable than saving the 270 points by deving for 2000 points, delaying filling of the third group by years.


At the end this system makes me buy tech for extra cost alot more than the old one.
Especialy in the second half of the game since the "global" institutions are painfully slow to grow.
Normaly youd have the tech with a few %. Maybe 5 or 10. Even 15% if you end up spending points on something else.
Now the game slaps 15% instantly. And if you dont have the Inst 13 years later its now 30%.
While global trade takes a few years to grow even under ideal conditions let alone if you own a continent.
Manufacturies are even slower and dont get me started on Enlightenment.

 

[_Bachus_]

At the end this system makes me buy tech for extra cost alot more than the old one.
Especialy in the second half of the game since the "global" institutions are painfully slow to grow.
Normaly youd have the tech with a few %. Maybe 5 or 10. Even 15% if you end up spending points on something else.
Now the game slaps 15% instantly. And if you dont have the Inst 13 years later its now 30%.
While global trade takes a few years to grow even under ideal conditions let alone if you own a continent.
Manufacturies are even slower and dont get me started on Enlightenment.

The point is that you will not get any new institution that will increase the cost of old tech. Each tech has its own requirments and it's constant. So if you don't have institution you can wait as long as you want and won't get any new institution increasing your tech cost by another +50%. Do you see the difference? In old system you had to rush because of new institution would spawn increasing everything. Now it's only neighbors that you need to worry about. But if you don't have any threat you will have more mana by waiting not rushing those increased costs without institution. If you're in the center of the institution spawn it doesn't matter. But outside it's a game changer. And that's what makes inno weaker because waiting is now a valid strategy to get more mana. You'll get more mana by waiting without inno than rushing tech with inno. And what are you taking inno for if not to get more mana. But you'll get less mana with rushing with inno than by just simply waiting. This is what the tech rework changed.

And again this does not mean that you're always better with waiting. Of course not. But there are plenty of cases where you'll be better off when waiting. And before it was never the case. You just had this next institution increasing all again. But not now. That's why it was stupid for AIs to rush tech in this new 1.32 system. Because in 1.32 rushing tech is subbar strategy in most cases from mana point perspective. Now you lose mana when you rush tech. Of course you can get important tech that will allow you to do sth on the map. Then it can be worth its cost. But if you do nothing with the tech it's not worth anything and you always pay more mana when you rush now. Because there won't be any new institution increasing old cost. This was eliminated from the game completely.

 

[Vulkandrache]

new institution increasing your tech cost by another +50%. Do you see the difference?

No i dont.
To me this sounds like you are conjecturing a theroretical scenario that in this form never actualy happens.
If a new institutions spawns and you arent set up to get in a decade or two then you dev for it.
Unless you are playing some edgecase american native you arent ever even close to 50% let alone more.

The new system increases the average techcost because instead of being able to choose to get 1-3 levels at low (~5-30%)penalty or get the institution first
you would now get the same tech for 15, 30 and 50%. So you have to get the instituition asap.
The whole

it's only neighbors that you need to worry about.

is bullshit.
That applies for the first few years. Maybe until 1520. Until the third ideagroup is mostly filled and the game starts for real.
Then you are reaching for places with completely different levels of tech.
Places that you either need to keep up with or that you want to be ahead of so they arent any harder to conquer than nessecary.

Thats not even mentioning the fact that, early on, its actualy kind of hard to spend the MP if you forgo tech.
Depending on where you start either AE or manpower will keep you from getting enough provinces to core or integrate.
And deving (atleast anything but the capital state) is actively retarded right now.

 

[_Bachus_]

No i dont.
To me this sounds like you are conjecturing a theroretical scenario that in this form never actualy happens.
If a new institutions spawns and you arent set up to get in a decade or two then you dev for it.
Unless you are playing some edgecase american native you arent ever even close to 50% let alone more.

Like I said I agree there are some techs worth taking. Problem is there are not many of them and most of the techs are useless. In the past you rushed techs not because they gave sth useful in most cases, but you rushed it because next institution would increase the tech even more making you even more mana point behind. Now it's not the case anymore. Eu4 is mana game. And you now losing points by rushing most of the techs.

I never said to be 10 tech behind. 1-3 is optimal, sometimes more depending where you are in the world. What's not optimal is rushing tech. Simply from the fact, as I said, that tech cost now is upfront +15%, +30%, +50% if you not have an institution. You don't want to buy techs without institution at all with those penalties. In most cases you can get away without those techs. Like ideas openers are important, but you have 2-4 techs window between those to fall behind there and it's mostly about having points to fill those not opening them alone so you plan more around that. Diplo techs - some for colonization and 23 for imperialism, but plenty to fall behind there in this group. As for military as I said it's about the need for even wars. YOu can plan around that also. You not always fight wars where its 50/50 and every pips matter. In most cases this one pip isn't what will make an impact in a war.

The whole point is that you can choose those important techs and plan catch-up around those. You wont get any institution penalty and you'll get 10-20% neibhours discount to tech doing that. Far better than rushing some +15%, +30% plus 50% techs with inno even. Yes some cases you would do that but as I said changes made other options stronger and at the same time rushing tech strat much worse.

Like the higher cost is earlier now so how can you say that it makes you rush them even more?? You rush something that was made more expensive earlier and will get cheaper with time and you do that everytime without a purpose on the map? It sounds not right. You lose mana that way. But maybe you don't care about that so it's totally fine.

 

[Vulkandrache]

Like the higher cost is earlier now so how can you say that it makes you rush them even more??

Its not about rushing tech.
No one said anything about paying ahead of time.
But the problem arises even on tech 5. It wants renaisance. The choice is either
1. Wait for it. Even next to Italy that takes a few years.
2. Cap Dip and in turn tech Dip. No.
3. Buy Adm 5 without it.
Which is the obvious choice. Because spending 90 Admin extra is preferable to teching Dip 4 and thus delaying filling out Influence ideas.
Except for "not dying" getting Influence ideas done is the single most important thing in the early game.
Delaying that until after renainsance or blowing one and a half ideas on tech instead is out of the question.

In the past buying tech 5 was 4% at most. Now its 15% every time. And that happens with every ideagroup unlock.
This 11% difference is the main extra cost of the new system.

And this happens with some other tech in some other ay too. Things that unlock a manu that you have alot of.
Waiting for several years to save 90 points? No. By that time the manus would already be finished and start making money