Institution not spawning but research penalty? 25 yrs late!!!

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_Bachus_

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And this happens with some other tech in some other ay too. Things that unlock a manu that you have alot of.
Waiting for several years to save 90 points? No. By that time the manus would already be finished and start making money

Yeah as I said there are cases where it's worth the cost. You just pointed one scenario. But even here you can wait for -10% neighbour bonus if you can't get institution and not rush Adm 5 to get this 10% discount and maybe even -15% if you get institution in that time. Is it worth it? Probably depends on individual scenario but its good example when the cost is not that huge for what you get -> unlock of idea group where you not have much places to put points. But you get it, there are scenarios where you take those increased cost without any benefits at all. And, my point was that the change in tech allowed some more flexibility in staying behind. You would not take +30% tech only to get inno if it gave you only +1 or 2 % production / trade efficiency. It basically not worth the cost then. There are plenty of such cases. And TBH more techs are like my example than yours. And the biggest difference is that in old system it didn't matter what tech gave or not gave. Because institution spawned and with each year you would pay more, meaning you would lose more points. Now you pay less when you wait. You can say that you could wait in old system as well. Yes you could but the difference is that the time window was much smaller then. You would just get into next institution if you waited and ended up paying even more because it affected all techs. The fact that tech costs are unconnected to institution spawn or future institution makes huge difference in what you allow to do in terms of staying behind and getting more mana that way. That's why I said that this change made inno worse. It didn't make it so directly because inno works the same as before, but it made alternative much stronger, making inno weaker indirectly.
 
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agonistes

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You make it sound like the whole system is broken, whereas the only issue the majority of players seems to be having is that colonialism spawns late in some games due to slower colonisation by Portugal/Castile.

Why is the solution to throw out the whole system? Just as we saw with PU-AE with regards to mission trees PDS will probably balance this in an ad-hoc manner, or maybe fix the bug where AI is not hiring advisors, thus giving the colonizers more MP, unlocking exploration earlier and unlocking the one problematic institution on parity with previous versions.

Its not caused by slower colonization. I just played as Portugal and had 3 >10 crown colonies waaaay before 1500, and still colonialism did not spawn earlier than 1530. (And in frickin Spain, of course, who had 2 overseas provinces).

edit: I found this so unusual, I kept checking my institution screen to see if I had just missed the event, then eventually just accepted it could be a permanent bug and would never spawn, and everyone would have the same permanent negative modifier. Not game breaking though.
 

grotaclas

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Its not caused by slower colonization. I just played as Portugal and had 3 >10 crown colonies waaaay before 1500, and still colonialism did not spawn earlier than 1530. (And in frickin Spain, of course, who had 2 overseas provinces).
If Spain only had two overseas provinces, this sounds like slow colonization to me. If only Portugal is eligible, the chances to spawn colonialism are low, because they only have two eligible provinces(Lisboa and Porto) unless they developed another province or conquered eligible provinces from Castile. As each province only has a 5% chance to spawn the institution, there is a 0.95^60=4.6% chance that it doesn't spawn in the first 30 years.
 
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agonistes

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If Spain only had two overseas provinces, this sounds like slow colonization to me. If only Portugal is eligible, the chances to spawn colonialism are low, because they only have two eligible provinces(Lisboa and Porto) unless they developed another province or conquered eligible provinces from Castile. As each province only has a 5% chance to spawn the institution, there is a 0.95^60=4.6% chance that it doesn't spawn in the first 30 years.
Hmm, that may be it. I did dev my provinces though, but nobody else was colonizing.
 

grotaclas

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Hmm, that may be it. I did dev my provinces though, but nobody else was colonizing.
Somehow I missed that you said that you played Portugal. Was your capital still in Lisboa? Colonialism can only spawn in a coastal province which has land connection to your capital(provinces on other continents are not considered to have a land connection by the game). It also matters what you dev, because colonialism needs a coastal province which has either 12 dev, a center of trade or your capital. So deving already eligible provinces doesn't help and it doesn't help either if you dev to below 12.
 

agonistes

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Somehow I missed that you said that you played Portugal. Was your capital still in Lisboa? Colonialism can only spawn in a coastal province which has land connection to your capital(provinces on other continents are not considered to have a land connection by the game). It also matters what you dev, because colonialism needs a coastal province which has either 12 dev, a center of trade or your capital. So deving already eligible provinces doesn't help and it doesn't help either if you dev to below 12.

No, I didn't move my capital. I believe everything was dev'd to 20, but don't hold me to this.

And boy was I dismayed when Castille spawned it. Seville is hotly contested. But I'm still sitting at a sweet 75+% trade power there.
 

grotaclas

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I think something is wrong with Industrialism. You can meet all the requirements of the 1760 threshold per the UI and not spawn it, which is annoying.
Industrialization has a 100% chance to spawn according to the game files. Do you have a save where it doesn't spawn despite meeting all the requirements? In that case it would probably be a good idea to post a bugreport about this.
 

MachopPower69

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It annoyed me when I was using a mod that removed almost every nation leaving only the Asian Steppes and African nations and the tech penalty hit hard because nobody colonised Italy at all except for my as Aksum in my peaceful colonial game so I had to colonise to southern Italy for it to spawn.

The techs should check if the regions are empty. For example, if Italy has no nations, it should check for the nearest province that is owned by an active nation like Tunis or Alexandria
 
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Zelius

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I'm well past that point in that save, since it spawned using 1770 requirements. The wiki's description is not what I recall seeing in the game, however, so I'm already suspecting the bug is with the UI.

I got it in the middle of 1764 after one monthly tick; having forgot to spawn it earlier I dev'd a furnace to 30 and got it immediately, having met the other requirements.

It annoyed me when I was using a mod that removed almost every nation leaving only the Asian Steppes and African nations and the tech penalty hit hard because nobody colonised Italy at all except for my as Aksum in my peaceful colonial game so I had to colonise to southern Italy for it to spawn.

The techs should check if the regions are empty. For example, if Italy has no nations, it should check for the nearest province that is owned by an active nation like Tunis or Alexandria

For spawning Renaissance? That is clearly a mod issue... though I suppose theoretically a player could also break Renaissance spawn by conquering the entirety of Italy and leaving it as territorial cores.
 
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MachopPower69

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I got it in the middle of 1764 after one monthly tick; having forgot to spawn it earlier I dev'd a furnace to 30 and got it immediately, having met the other requirements.



For spawning Renaissance? That is clearly a mod issue... though I suppose theoretically a player could also break Renaissance spawn by conquering the entirety of Italy and leaving it as territorial cores.
No, it's not the mods problem. It's just that there hasn't been anyone in Italy for the Renaissance to spawn.
 
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Blackmoore

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I've been playing in Persia and India the last couple months (trying to get a Mughals WC done). In all of the runs that I've done these past few months, I can't say that I've noticed a late spawning Colonialism.

I have noticed that the overall rate of colonizing is slower than it used to be, however, initially.
 

grotaclas

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No, it's not the mods problem. It's just that there hasn't been anyone in Italy for the Renaissance to spawn.
But that's something which can't happen in a normal game. The developers can't account for all the changes which a mod could possibly do(or should they also account for changes in all the other conditions for all institutions? A mod could for example remove the italy_region from the game files completely or remove the manufactories buildings). If a mod removes all countries in Italy and the mod author did change the spawning conditions for the renaissance you have to deal with that as a player.
 
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grommile

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It annoyed me when I was using a mod that removed almost every nation leaving only the Asian Steppes and African nations and the tech penalty hit hard because nobody colonised Italy at all except for my as Aksum in my peaceful colonial game so I had to colonise to southern Italy for it to spawn.
That's 200% the modder's fault for not thinking through the consequences of their design decisions.
 
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dD_ShockTrooper

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So long as the game has a 100% chance of spawning the institution if the conditions are met somewhere in the world I would not mind. The only issue is it's actually straight up RNG as to whether it decides to spawn at all. Global Trade is disgustingly notorious for this where it just keeps rolling "lol no" year after year of all requirements being met.
 
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necro84

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So long as the game has a 100% chance of spawning the institution if the conditions are met somewhere in the world I would not mind. The only issue is it's actually straight up RNG as to whether it decides to spawn at all. Global Trade is disgustingly notorious for this where it just keeps rolling "lol no" year after year of all requirements being met.

I suspect the game game may check requirements in every provice ordered by id. If there would be 100% chance to spawn institution this would cause spawning in the same province in almost all games - renesaince in Genoa because it has id 101, colonialism in Spain because it has lower province ids than Portugal or England. Sometimes France would spawn it if they went colonial.
 
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Vulkandrache

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I suspect the game game may check requirements in every provice ordered by id
It does. Usualy 5% per eligible province.
The problem is that sometimes it just does not roll "well".

If it does not spawn after the last province has been checked it should do a second pass in reverse order or something,
to increase the odds of it appearing if we keep the current awful system.
 

grotaclas

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I suspect the game game may check requirements in every provice ordered by id
I'm pretty sure that it is not checked in a fixed order. I once did an experiment and gave Renaissance a 99% chance to spawn. If provinces with low ids are rolled first, it should spawn in provinces with a low ID all the time with such a high spawning chance, but it doesn't.
 
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MachopPower69

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For those saying "It's the modders fault if you can't spawn the renaissance in Italy if there is no-one in Italy", just remember that in the vanilla of "Custom nations" for changing the map in the options, the whole map can be blank so if you have a custom nation in China, you can't get Renaissance because nobody is in europe unless you add a custom nation in that area.