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SirGrotius

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Technological advances were made ad hoc during the Roman Republic.

It seems that the main struggle during this period was Culture versus Barbarism. It'd be interesting if Rome would model Culture as something to be invested in as patronage and civic fetes, which would apply bonuses in several ways for your nation and would potentially lead to technologies or engineering models.

Barbarous nations would lack access to technologies or the other important sweets of civilization.
 

Alhazen

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SirGrotius said:
Technological advances were made ad hoc during the Roman Republic.

It seems that the main struggle during this period was Culture versus Barbarism. It'd be interesting if Rome would model Culture as something to be invested in as patronage and civic fetes, which would apply bonuses in several ways for your nation and would potentially lead to technologies or engineering models.

Barbarous nations would lack access to technologies or the other important sweets of civilization.

Implying that "barbaric" cultures had no technology or civilization is antithesis to what I would portray in the game. Each of the cultures needs to be portrayed in its own light with its own advancements and culture. Many of the gallic and germanic tribes were extremely advanced and have a very developed civilization, for instance, and hopefully Paradox realizes this and portrays it at such. We dont want another RTW here.
 

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Barbarian does not mean "stupid" or "underdeveloped". I´d even say that not living in cities or using and alphabet does not make a culture worse (oral tradition means something to you?)
If we ment that, we couldn´t call "civilization" to most parts of Europe during Middle Ages.
 

SirGrotius

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Alhazen said:
Implying that "barbaric" cultures had no technology or civilization is antithesis to what I would portray in the game. Each of the cultures needs to be portrayed in its own light with its own advancements and culture. Many of the gallic and germanic tribes were extremely advanced and have a very developed civilization, for instance, and hopefully Paradox realizes this and portrays it at such. We dont want another RTW here.

Of course, you represent Europa BARBARUM! Have no fear, I'm sure that Paradox will create a game that models all nationalities, if I can use that term for convenience, fairly. I'm a little confused by what you mean by "extremely advanced," as extreme to me means, well, the most or close to the most, advanced, while in the same thought you're saying that nations should not be compared to each other in terms of technology, or at least, cultural development.
 

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Alhazen said:
Implying that "barbaric" cultures had no technology or civilization is antithesis to what I would portray in the game. Each of the cultures needs to be portrayed in its own light with its own advancements and culture. Many of the gallic and germanic tribes were extremely advanced and have a very developed civilization, for instance, and hopefully Paradox realizes this and portrays it at such.

I don't think there is anything extreme about the gallic/germanic tribes level of advancement, they were at an average level. Its just that the Romans, as inheritors of the Greek tradition, were extremely advanced, in a variety of social and intellectual ways, and thus made the various tribes look more primitive than they actually were.

The game could model the spread of Greek learning, as it forms the foundation of western civilization. It had a profound effect on Asia and Africa (in the Greek sense of those places), although it was spread at the point of a sword. Greek learning could then be layered with the logistical and organizational techniques of the Romans. Together these could form "technology", at least in the Hellenized world.

There might need to be separate barbarian "techs", that represent their social and military advancements, as Hellenism never took hold in a significant way among them. So, I wouldn't be surprised if there were two "tech trees", to represent the very different ways knowledge was approached in the Hellenized and barbarian worlds.
 

Merrick Chance'

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Or maybe they have tied tech to the amount of freemen you have, which would produce a natural disadvantage to the Germanic tribes, but not one that a good player couldn't overcome.
 

unmerged(21621)

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barbarians were no "less advanced" than other cultures. it's just that a lot of what we know about them comes from roman sources, and they called pretty much all non romans "barbarians," and probably had an incentive (whether political or just because of pride) to make other cultures look inferior to their own. for instance, the gauls and much better metalworking technology than the romans did.
 

Archaalen

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The Greeks, Romans, and Carthaginians were numerically more populous and more socially organized (ie, people in charge had more control over their people). Those were their only advantages. Period.
 

Vacceo

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el_dude said:
barbarians were no "less advanced" than other cultures. it's just that a lot of what we know about them comes from roman sources, and they called pretty much all non romans "barbarians," and probably had an incentive (whether political or just because of pride) to make other cultures look inferior to their own. for instance, the gauls and much better metalworking technology than the romans did.
They even had a sort of charriot used as harverster. ;)
 

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Actually, Europe during the middle ages wasn't that 'civilized' compared to the rest of the world. (answer to one of the posts about "barbarism")

I think "technology" should have benefits like
-govern more provinces more efficiently
-being able to field "larger" armies (lower logistic costs)
 

HolisticGod

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All,

The Romans used the word "barbarian" in the way we use the word "foreigner." It certainly had its negative connotations, but then so does "foreigner."

By this measure, the Greeks were barbarian, the Carthaginians were barbarian, the Levantine peoples were barbarian, the Persians were barbarian and so on, up to, at least, their conquest. It's not, then, a suitable antonym for civilized.

That said, "The Greeks, Romans, and Carthaginians were numerically more populous and more socially organized (ie, people in charge had more control over their people). Those were their only advantages. Period." is little more than political correctness. The Greeks, Romans, Carthaginians, Persians, Syrians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, et al, in their various times and places, had a slew of advantages over their uncivilized (i.e., non-city dwelling) neighbors and exercised them to tremendous effect. This is not a modern reading of colonialism. "Civilized" states in the ancient world were urban-centered, literate and organized, and thereby technologically advanced and capable of marshaling massive labor and military resources for extended periods of time. "Uncivilized" villages, clans, tribes and tribal federations were inherently incapable of doing so, and even highly organized nomadic groups (made so in large part by the necessities of being nomadic), which possessed many of the qualities of civilization in transit, invariably became civilized as a result of conquest and in order to maintain it.

The civilized states ought not walk all over the uncivilized "states," but there were vast differences between them and those ought to be in the game. I realize Germanic tribes have lately been romanticized as proto-democracies in which men and women alike, and equal, gave their lives for liberty Tom Paine style, Gaelic towns as peaceful, tidy centers of learning and trade, Briton uprisings as the viva la resistance of the Pax Romana, but romance is what it is.
 

Archaalen

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But there WERE cities in Gaul, the "oppida" that Caesar found. Modern excavation has discovered that these walled enclosures were high-poulation centers for the large-scale manufacture of goods and trade in those goods. If that doesn't make a city, I don't know what does. They were smaller than major Mediterranean cities, but probably comparable with smaller centers like Messana. Germany even had few of these centers, but I am less with their situation at gamestart than that of the Gauls and Celtiberians.
This isn't about political correctness, I just don't want it to be made impossible for Northern peoples to have a good chance of fending off Mediterranean powers in a fight. Remember, Caesar was nearly lost in Gaul, and it wasn't simply because he made mistakes. The Gauls came very close to destroying him, and the main reason they did not was because of their disunity, and advantage which I already stated the Romans as having.
 

HolisticGod

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Archaalen,

Except that Caesar fought at a massive numerical disadvantage in Gaul, even if we assume Roman chroniclers (and Caesar himself) are grossly exaggerating. This was true through most of the Republican era-smaller numbers of Roman troops accomplished more as a consequence of their technology, organization, discipline, leadership and the social structures that supported them. Apart from Hannibal, I can't think of a single major pre-Triumvir war in which the Romans were not locally outnumbered, and the superiority of Roman civilization (technologically, materially and structurally) was roundly demonstrated over even their Italian neighbors.

I'm not suggesting Gaelic and Germanic peoples were hopelessly primitive. I am responding to the assertion that "The Greeks, Romans, and Carthaginians were numerically more populous and more socially organized (ie, people in charge had more control over their people). Those were their only advantages. Period." That just isn't supported in the historical or archeological records.

Compare Roman engineering to that of any found in Western or Northern Europe.
 

hildoceras

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"Rocky Romans" : poor military manpower, expensive maintenance, excellent military efficiency
"Rest of the world" : better military manpower, cheaper maintenance, good to poor military efficiency

a good summary ? ;)
 

shasla6

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SirGrotius said:
Technological advances were made ad hoc during the Roman Republic.

It seems that the main struggle during this period was Culture versus Barbarism. It'd be interesting if Rome would model Culture as something to be invested in as patronage and civic fetes, which would apply bonuses in several ways for your nation and would potentially lead to technologies or engineering models.

Barbarous nations would lack access to technologies or the other important sweets of civilization.

Tsk tsk. You're not allowed to think that way anymore. All cultures are equal, remember?

I am sick of revisionist, politically correct "history".
 
Last edited:

Archaalen

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I just SAID that my suggestions have nothing to do with political correctness! I just don't want the difference between "Civilized" and "Uncivilized" countries to be as big as it was in Victoria (ie, AI uncivs could never win against civilized opponents, ever). I admit I went too far with the "only advantages" thing, but I wanted to make clear that everything north of the Alps was not an empty wilderness full of cavemen who happened to use iron.
 

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Archaalen said:
I just SAID that my suggestions have nothing to do with political correctness! I just don't want the difference between "Civilized" and "Uncivilized" countries to be as big as it was in Victoria (ie, AI uncivs could never win against civilized opponents, ever). I admit I went too far with the "only advantages" thing, but I wanted to make clear that everything north of the Alps was not an empty wilderness full of cavemen who happened to use iron.

The hairy cavemen image certainly doesnt hold up. The celtic and germanic societies was surprisingly organized. But compared to the Roman/Hellenistic cultures they were pretty backwards.
 

HolisticGod

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All,

The funniest thing about political correctness and revisionism in this case (not that Archaalen is necessary a subscriber) is that we are descendants of the hairy cavemen who happened to use iron, not the civilized Romans, Greeks or Carthaginians.