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Warning: This post is slightly OT and contains some random comments and is may not be suitable for anyone to draw an immediate conclusion. Also note that it is not a criticism of Europa Universalis in any way, as I have never played this game. :)

EU and nearly all other strategy games attempt to model advances in technology the same way. Scientific endeavors are mandated soley by the spending of the central government. It's been this way since the original Civ, as the player was forced into spending income on (1) building cash (2) entertaining the citizens or (3) scientific research. Now Civ was a great game 10 years ago (or whenever it first came out), but I think the model for technological advancement needs to be updated.

Why do I believe this? Fundamentally, innovation is the result of seemingly insignificant discoveries by an independent person. We'll never know who first invented the wheel, but you can bet that it wasn't a group of nomads that decided to form a committee and find a solution to the problem of the slow rate of travel. More recent scientific accomplishments have been documented; and all of the seminal ones that I can think of can attributed to a single person (calculus, genetics, steam engine, telephone). The national governments where these advances occured had no direct involvment in their research and were probably unaware of the accomplishment for some significant period of time.

However, we tend to think of huge government, corporate or university laboratories where all scientific advancement takes place these days. This is due to the fact that humanity has figured out the basic operations of a wide range of things. Yet this is an exception to what has taken place throught the beginning of the 20th century. In terms of being applied to a strategy game, it probably works only for the sci-fi sub-genre. Even so, the result is the same, the game is only allowed to permit linear technological development, and typically, the only one advance can be discovered at a time.

The problem lies with the difference between pure scientific discovery and the application of the discovery for a useful purpose. In this case, I think of the discovery of penicillin: It was discovered by accident as the mold was allowed to contaminate a petri dish full of bacteria. At first it appeared that the experiment was a failure because of the contamination, but only later was the significance realized. However, growing the required amount of mold using a laboritory environment proved extremely costly and inefficient: the scientists couldn't even produce a large enough batch of the mold to save the trial patient. Eventually, the scientists teamed up with a pharmaceutical company to develop an manufacturing process so the drug could be produced for the mass market.

I've only played one game that offered a fairly realistic approach to technology and this was Imperalism. Now, I know that there were several issues with Imp, but I'm only concerned with this single aspect of the game. Essentially, scientific advances occured as random events, they occured at certain points in time and were available for all nations to purchase. After the technology was purchased, troops & ships could be upgraded, new types of dipolmacy could be undertaken, etc. Furthermore, a Nation had to purchase certain basic technologies before buying more advanced and powerful ones. This meant that a Nation couldn't leapfrog its opponents by passing up on the introductory technologies.

I'd like to see this approach refined a little bit more for use in other games (i.e. EU ][). The player is given the option to purchase a range of technologies, some of which are worthless, some of which are mediocre and some of which are revolutionary. Clearly, if a Nation is prosperous and at peace, more it would attract more scientists than one that is constantly at war. Also, I'd think that a country that allows more personal liberties would also attract more scientists, although perhaps it has drawbacks in terms of intolerance of high taxes, wars, and other nasty issues.

The other advantage of this approach would be that the discoveries would get cheaper over time. The concept here would be that as more Nations move to exploit the technology, it becomes more common and the secrets of its application become harder to contain. An example here is Eli Whitney's cotton gin, which was cutting edge in 1793, but it took over 15 years to gain broad acceptance outside the US. The cheaper technologies can be more easily adapted by other less powerful nations at a price which fits their weaker economies. However, the 'early adopter' gets a couple of years to use the new technology.

Thoughts, anyone?
 

maurice

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Here are 3 suggestions:

1. technology advanced due to practical use and need. So the more money spent in an activity e.g. building ships, roads, armies etc then the faster your tech level increases. If you don't build ships, why should your naval tech level increase even through real research. Practice makes perfect.
2. individual genuises like Archimedes, Leonardo, Edison or Frederick the Great. Frederick was a brilliant reformer of the army, his generalship was above average but not brilliant. The quality of his troops won his battles. The game should focus on individuals a lot more e.g. that fat Augustinian monk (Luther?)
It should be the ability of the head of the army, navy (ministers) which make an influence.
3. theft - espionage was not invented in the 20th century c.f. Barry Lyndon?
4. reforms in time of peace as a result of lessons learnt in the previous war - e.g. the 1745? English Warrant (army)or being beaten by socket bayonets.

I too agree that research should play a smaller role and be called 'investment' or some other non-20thC term.
 

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You’re right, innovation is largely a function of two things: individual initiative and a perceived or felt need for something to be better/different. And, this happens in an environment of actual experience with the predecessor item and experiments upon it to see if an improvement will work. Invention is mostly incremental improvement and generally, the improvement happens without funding support (investment) of the society. This is not always true, but usually.

Acceptance of the resulting invention/improvement is another matter. Individual, cultural and societal resistance to change often results in significant delay in the usefulness and application of the invention/improvement.

The problem is how to model all this “soft” stuff. Well...

p=(exp(i+n)+E)/R

Where
p=the probability a hoped for/needed improvement will occur
Exp=level of experience with predecessor/existing technology
i=the individual inventor’s ability
n=the level of perceived or felt need
E=the number of experiments needed to actually demonstrate a practical improvement
R=the level of individual, cultural and societal resistance to the improvement

I don’t know if this formula would actually work, but it might be a first step toward one that could be put in a game.
 

Dark Knight

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Another major problem with scientific development as modeled in Civ and other games is that it has every country develop new technologies and scientific ideas completely independently of one another. A more accurate way of modeling scientific advances would have them occur in a single country (presumably the leader in its field due to domestic circumstances that foster scientific thought) and then diffuse to other countries at a rate depending on distance, receptiveness to new ideas and innovations, and other factors. This would I think be a far more accurate model than traditional ones. Maybe in EU ][...
 

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Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Maurice - I agree with your points completely.

1) In regards to 'practice makes perfect' I'd never thought about the correlation between daily use and subsequent innovation. You're right on about the example of the navy. There's no reasonable explanation for a landlocked country to have access to top-rate ships. I think another practical example of this is the fact that European road & bridge building technology didn't rival that of the Romans until the 19th century. Nations were much smaller than the Roman Empire and tended to have much more regionally-focused economies. Goods were primarily transported intra-region with boats or barges.
2) The influence of the individual is also typically under-rated. I think that in addition to 'hiring' certain individuals which would create more innovative ideas, other individuals may be adept at determining what types of innovation is more valuable than others. For example, I've read that certain Nations tended to produce superior small-arms. This is due to the influence of a relatively mid-level officer (i.e. a colonel or equivalent) being able to determine which type of rifle was the best. I've read about US troops in WWI being outfitted with a poor quality French rifle that tended to jam fighting against German troops which were using a machine gun with an American lineage.
3) Theft and Geography: These would both help level the playing field, after all, a country can be beaten by superior technolgy for only so long before they figure it out for themelves or steal it. There is a legend in the US that Eli Whitney (a great inventor) had a photographic memory and was able to replicate the designs of machines used in English factories.

Jeff M - I love the approach of trying to quantify how innovation could be modeled into a game. However, I'm not clear on why the number of experiments is added to the product of experience x (need + inventor's ability).

DK - I agree with the whole issue of geography determining how innovation spreads. Like I mentioned in my point #3 above, if one Nation develops a superior tactic or weapon in one war, they will typically find it employed against them in the subsequent war.
 

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>>I've read about US troops in WWI being outfitted with a poor quality French rifle that tended to jam fighting against German troops which were using a machine gun with an American lineage.

--The French weapon that was useless was a machine gun the Chat, (???) something like that. The US made rifle they had was a very good weapon 1903 Springfield?? I think.

>>The influence of the individual is also typically under-rated. I think that in addition to 'hiring' certain individuals which would create more innovative ideas, other individuals may be adept at determining what types of innovation is more valuable than others. For example, I've read that certain Nations tended to produce superior small-arms. This is due to the influence of a relatively mid-level officer (i.e. a colonel or equivalent) being able to determine which type of rifle was the best.

--Actually, I think the reverse is more true in reality, IMHO. I think resistance to change in individuals, cultures, societies is HUGE. I've spent 25 years in US Department of Defense R&D laboratories watching the scientists and engineers (I'm on the business side) fight WITH/AGAINST each other about whether an idea should be tried/adopted. Mostly, the idea man lost. And this is in an environment where ideas and the freedom to think, experiment and try out strange ideas is supposed to be a hallmark when we were looking for ideas to counter/overcome Soviet threats. I also have an inventor friend who works alone who would agree with how hard it is to get an idea 'paid attention to'. I really think that the conservative egos and national institutions in the army, navy, educational and scientific communities of the time EU is set in had the same effect on new ideas. Good ideas were hard to have, but it was even harder to get someone with influence and money to accept and push through the resistance. Even when they were the one in charge (like the British 1st Sea Lord (name??) who gave us the torpedo boat destroyer and then the destroyer, also gave us the problematic battle cruiser class (e.g., HMS Hood).

>> I love the approach of trying to quantify how innovation could be modeled into a game. However, I'm not clear on why the number of experiments is added to the product of experience x (need + inventor's ability).

-- Me neither. I just had the thought about a formula and threw it down, or up as the case may be. The one thought I had was Thomas Edison's experience with the filament in what would become light bulbs. A lot of experiments over a long time were required. Thus, adding seemed right, but I sure don't know. Since the result of the equation would be a p<1 then ... oh phooey, I'm retired and I don't have to think like this any more. :cool:

I can let younger and better brains figure this out for me. Heh. :D
 

unmerged(212)

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Jeff:
So 25 years at the DoD, eh? I think that this forum has attracted a wide range of people with extremely interesting backgrounds.

Given your real-world experience in the R&D business, I don't want to quibble with your knowledge of how hard it is for an individual to play a critical role in a project. I don't doubt that this is the way it works in today's world. I mean how many people even know who Craig Venter is; and he was on the cover of Time magazine. Actually, he's a mediocre example as he's more into the PR & business side of things at Celera. However, I bet that most people on the street would be hard-pressed to identify five living scientists.

However, my whole agenda here is to discuss the history of innovation, especially as it pertains to the time period of EU. I think that it's safe to say that during this period discoveries were made by individuals, and the adoption of revolutionary ideas was the hallmark of excellent leaders, as Maurice noted... Frederick the Great was a noted as more of an innovator than a tactician.

Any rate... that WWI gun was the Chat (tranlates cat)? I think the details are coming back now. I also remember the recoil on this beast was so fierce that it could break a soldier's jaw, and was called 'the slap.'
 

maurice

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If this was a boardgame, I'd have a large deck of cards with random research events - a bit like the Chance cards in Monopoly.

You can draw 1 card every 5 years for free.
You can spend money to buy another 1.
If you have a monarch with exceptional interest in the army or navy etc, then you get 1 more card.

The decks are like the cards in the S&T game Empires of the Middle Ages.
The card tells you what you need to dice roll to advance a tech level. Included on the card is the cause (e.g. breakthrough by Colonel of the Army so you can tell if the card is good or not)
Most cards are blank.
Some have +1 progess (Britain invents tanks).
Some -1 (e.g. US Army decides tanks are dumb)
Some may have random event (if you want to spend 50 you can try to steal 1 tech off someone else).
You move your tech marker along the tech level track.
Some cards are secret e.g. add +1 to firepower in next battle.

If it was a computer game I'd design a realistic model and junk the research spending idea.

Another point on Frederick - he hired the best brains of Europe to advance Prussian ability.