Innovation Slider Affects Tolerance?

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Surgünoglu

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Of course, all this depends on whether or not we still will have sliders.

But wouldn't it be nice if you could change how much tolerance you could grant? That way, you could have governments that were open-minded and would tolerate more than three faiths.

Innovation should have more benefits than tech increase and unexpected invention.
 

Yakman

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All sliders, including tolerance sliders, should only be allowed gradual moves. And yes, they should be linked.
 

SecondReich

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Yeah. It never made much sense to me that if you were open minded everyone hated you, and if your subjects were free, they hated you.

It seems like they would hate you if you were a cruel, iron-fisted tyrant, but it seems they just lie low when that happens.

I didn't like the way that system worked.
 

Surgünoglu

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I just want to avoid the game that the OE now seems to follow--better to be narrow-minded and convert than to be innovative. If the Turks go for progress, they're punished for it, which makes no sense.
 
Feb 15, 2006
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Surgünoglu said:
I just want to avoid the game that the OE now seems to follow--better to be narrow-minded and convert than to be innovative. If the Turks go for progress, they're punished for it, which makes no sense.

Perhaps because multiculture never works, while a unified nation stands strong?
 

Surgünoglu

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That's a very modern, Western concept. Again I say this: during the time period, when were the Ottomans strong? When they granted local autonomy, religious freedom, and low taxation. When did they become weak? When they became narrow-minded, superstitious, and technophobic.

And how do the Ottomans work in the game? Through narrow-mindedness and conversion, which is the exact opposite of how they gained success. Just watch how they convert the Greeks and the Slavs, which is completely the reverse of how they actually progressed. In reality, only two populations in Europe converted to Islam, and more as a result of local conditions than Ottoman influence: Albania and Bosnia. In both regions, there was a lot of religious disorder and sectarian conflict among the Christians.

In real life, the Ottomans started to spiral into destruction when they became the country that banned the printing press.
 

Yakman

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Surgünoglu said:
In reality, only two populations in Europe converted to Islam, and more as a result of local conditions than Ottoman influence: Albania and Bosnia. In both regions, there was a lot of religious disorder and sectarian conflict among the Christians.
In bosnia, maybe. In Albania it was because the Ottomans forcibly converted the locals.
 

Surgünoglu

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Ottoman_rule

That's for the Bosnians, and it seems obvious because Bosnia was a border state between Catholic and Orthodox powers. I would say that same of Albania (the article mentions it, but only briefly), since it had a lot of Orthodox Christians yet was incredibly close to Catholic Italy. That is not to say that the Ottomans didn't try to convert the Albanians, but they didn't control everything.

In any event, my comments stand. Narrow-minded cultural absolutism might work for reasonably homogeneous European states, but it killed the Ottoman Empire. This should be represented in the game.
 

Jolt

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There should defenitly be some option to allow Free Religion like what happened in the Netherlands.
 
Feb 15, 2006
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hmm, tolerance might need to be separated from science.

Tolerance,
HIGH: Infidels happier, expensive wars in dissidence and prestige (internal "civil wars", while outsiders think you inconsistent)
LOW: Your own happier, wage war upon the infidel cheaper (free at 0 or 1?)

Science,
HIGH: tech (duh!)
LOW: Stability, cheaper troops (?) -motivation: less moderniasations, makes massproduction and standards easier.. ofcourse those standards may end up outdated, but thats the price!