Initial Succession laws of newly granted titles

[Phibs]

Hey there folks!

First time poster - I don't usually frequent gaming forums, but since you're forced to register your game here anyways I figured I might as well get the perks

So greetings to the community and I hope some of you knowledgable members might know the answer to the question that's bugging me:

I am currently playing as the duke of Gwynned.
Neither the kingdom of Wales nor Ireland exist.

I managed to fabricate a claim on the countys of Leinster and Ossory (both in the Duchy of Leinster -> Ireland).

After aquiring both countys I wanted to grant them to beforehand not landed vassals (one courtier and one newly "invited" noble).

My own succession laws are Agnatic-Cognatic Gavelkind.

As soon as I grant the titles as described, they all of a sudden follow Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture laws.

WHY?


Thanks in advance!

Phibs



P.S.: English is not my first language. Criticism on that count is always appreciated.
If there is already a thread on this issue, I couldn't find it - and yes i did search.

 

[mr_human_555]

These counties previously have succession law primogeniture.
You are usurping (a.k.a stealing) a county from someone, and this action doesn't change the succession law of that county.
But if you yourself holds that county, the succession will follow your highest title, in this case the Duke, which is Gavelkind.

In order to change the succession law without changing it directly (which is not possible anyway if you hold it), you have to "destroy" and "recreate" it (not possible with counties).

For example:
I'm the King of Ireland. Succession law of Ireland is Primogeniture.
When I usurp the Duchy of Gwynedd, which has succession law Gavelkind, this law is not active, instead following my Ireland Kingdom law.
If I grant this Duchy to someone, it will have succession law Gavelkind.
If I destroy this Duchy, then I create it again myself, then grant it to a vassal, it will have succession law Primogeniture.

Hope that helps

tl;dr : nothing you can do to fix the situation

 

[Phibs]

Thanks for the quick reply Mr. human!

Is this wad or going to be fixed?
Personally I think this is extremely annoying.

I am duke of a non-existent kingdom so I can't go primo even though I'd want to, and this newly invited noble just gets it as a home-warming gift?

Well I'll go check if there's a mod to fix this.

Again thanks,

Phibs

 

[mr_human_555]

It's sort of WAD I believe. I found this situation when I'm distributing titles that were previously elective, and I see prince bishops & lord mayors everywhere!

Btw, as a duke of a non-exsistent kingdom, as long as you're independent, you can change to primo within 10 years of your rule IF every landed DIRECT vassal have positive opinion (this also means baronies, so be careful when using their levies). And this is the most ideal time you have to change your succession law, before becoming a king yourself.

 

[Phibs]

Well that's excellent. Good thing I didn't try to push for Wales yet. Thanks for that bit of info, very usefull!

Still I don't like this unchangeable county-succession-thing. Since there's no mod I'll keep looking for some gamey work-around

 

[Phibs]

Just an odd find:

1.) Change the county capital by granting it to a mayor or a bishop.
2.) Wait till the new owner creates a new baron
3.) Revoke both
4.) Grant county (capital is barony again) to new guy

Succession is now agnatic gavelkind.

Not really a practical solution.

Does anybody understand the mechanics involved? Are there game files I could look at?

 

[_krampe_]

In my game as King of Denmark with elective succession i wanted to create he Empire of Scandiavia.

The new empire had gavelkind succession and i was like wtf?
I reloaded and switched my primary title to the Kingdom of England with primogeniture and voila the Empire had primogeniture aswell.
I later saw that i was purely agnatic, but i can't remember what England had, i think it was agnatic-cognatic. Can't check because i'm not at home.

Either the laws after creation of a new title is complete random or dependant to the laws it was created out of in some way.
Next time i create a Kingdom/Empire i will test that out.

 

[mr_human_555]

Just an odd find:

1.) Change the county capital by granting it to a mayor or a bishop.
2.) Wait till the new owner creates a new baron
3.) Revoke both
4.) Grant county (capital is barony again) to new guy

Succession is now agnatic gavelkind.

Not really a practical solution.

Does anybody understand the mechanics involved? Are there game files I could look at?

Default succession law for feudal nobles: (Agnatic-Cognatic) Gavelkind
Default (one and only available) succession law for muslim nobles : Agnatic Turkish (Strongest child gets the title. No child search for brothers / closest relative)
Default (one and only available) succession law for mayor, bishops (except with investiture), mercenaries, etc. : Agnatic Open Elective (a random courtier gets the title, if there's no courtier the AI will randomly generate one)

You are essentially creating a mayor / bishop county, which causes the succession law changes to Agnatic Open Elective and change the capital to a city / church. When you revoke all their titles, you, a feudal noble, steals the title & causes the county capital to become a barony, because that's what a feudal noble should naturally be holding (if you notice, you get tax penalty on the city / church holdings you have). You steal the title, but you as a feudal noble are not allowed to use Agnatic Open Elective, so the system reverts the succession law to the "default" succession law for nobles, which is Gavelkind. The Agnatic part stays because you're allowed to use Agnatic.

 

[Phibs]

I'm pretty sure the succession laws of newly created duchies/kingdoms/empires depend on the laws of the creating noble....

I'll check that out in a couple of hours.

 

[Phibs]

Ok. So basically with this I did "destroy and recreate" the county as a feudal title?
I figured the barony title would carry the succession information with it. But obviously this only works on county level.....

 

[mr_human_555]

Ok. So basically with this I did "destroy and recreate" the county as a feudal title?
I figured the barony title would carry the succession information with it. But obviously this only works on county level.....

Not really, more like you tell the mayor to use Primogeniture / whatever succession law was there, but the mechanics forbids him to do so. Hence, the system forces the mayor to go Agnatic Open Elective. Then when you revoke his title, you're essentially telling yourself to use Agnatic Open Elective, but again the system forbids it, so it reverts back to the "default" law.

 

[jfb8300]

I'm pretty sure the succession laws of newly created duchies/kingdoms/empires depend on the laws of the creating noble....

I'll check that out in a couple of hours.

If your primary title is elective, creating a high title always defaults to gavelkind.

If your primary title is primogeniture, creating a high title stays primogeniture.

There's at least 2 threads in the bug forum, but no one has said if this is a bug or not.

 

[Phibs]

Well I just thought that if I hold the barony & county that was previously primo (temporarily overridden by my highest title) and give it to a mayor it would work the same way (agnatic open temporarily overriding the barony's succession laws). I then expected the county to go back to primo after revoking and handing it to another count again.

So what I'm trying to say is that a barony's "default" (meaning while not being overridden by a higher title) succession laws are not written in stone, but can change after the county's capital changes.

Woah my brain temporarily froze just there

 

[Phibs]

Okay thanks for clearing that up!