Inheriting an Empire - Succession question

[shypixel]

So I have been playing for a while, but am relatively new to the forums. (Making us register to see the mod thread was a brilliant if slightly evil tactic.)

I have been playing an extremely fun game started as the Orthodox count of Naples, and slowly unifying Italy and Sicily. I have been RPing the game as a faithful ally, if not vassal of the ERE. My family's long loyalty and utility to the Empire have finally been rewarded, and my son was wed to the Emperor's only surviving child. This dynastic union would have seen my realm, all of Italy with a smattering of holdings in Croatia, returned to the Empire.

However, when the time actually came I was playing the son of this union. The Old Geezer on the throne showed me as his heir. As he passed 65, I started checking in on him occasionally, to ensure nothing strange had happened. Lo and Behold, I go to check, and I see a new portrait!

The new Emperor is.... my 1 year old son. Nothing about it came up in any messages. I am imagining that a team of Byzantine ninjas snuck into my palace in Napoli, and kidnapped my precious son, my only child and heir, and left a warm potato in his place. Oddly, it took my servants and I a couple months to discover the switch, though the diapers full of sour cream and chives should have tipped us off...

My question is: Why the hell did my precocious little bundle of joy get the title, and not me?

I know that when I die, he will inherit my kingdom, and the end result will be largely the same. But from an RP perspective, this is unacceptable. Before, I was to be rewarded with the throne for my family's long service, and it would have been a glorious ascension to power of a new great house. Now it's more like when I die, the Empire will inherit the holdings of a failed kingdom.

I know the difference is small, but in my world it is huge. My family has had a tough go of it for the past hundred years, losing three very young monarchs to battle while defending the Empire from her enemies, which in turn caused no end of succession crises that saw my family lose all of our African and Spanish holdings.

It really seemed like the tide had turned for us and our fortunes were reviving. To be passed over in this manner is an insult, up with which I will not put!

But seriously, why did my kid inherit and not me?

For the record, the Empire was still Primogeniture, the Emperor loved me, I was paragon of Orthodox virtue and a staunch defender of the Empire. I don't get it...

EDIT: To clarify, I am now playing the child that resulted from the union between my son and the Byzantine Princess.

 

[jordarkelf]

Without knowing the exact setup it's not clear why your son was ever shown as heir, if the ERE has primogeniture law, and your son is married to the emperor's only child then your grandson should have been the heir from the start, before that the emperor's daughter (following agnatic-cognatic succession law). Unless you had a prior familial link to the Byz emperor, your son should not have been eligible (there is no succession law where husbands inherit based on their wife's claim).
Were you shown as the heir even after your grandson was born?

 

[shypixel]

Ah, my mistake, I wasn't clear. I am now playing the child that resulted from the union. My father is the one who wed the Byzantine Princess. Sadly, he was hit in the head during a battle in Nikea, and never stirred again. He died a few months later, leaving me his throne.

 

[jordarkelf]

So this is the family tree?

.............Byz Emperor
...................|
your father + Princess
................|
........your char
...........|
........your son (grandchild of Byz princess)

I can't think of any legit reason your char was skipped under agnatic-cognatic primogeniture unless your char's wife is also related to the Byz emperor somehow.

 

[shypixel]

So this is the family tree?

.............Byz Emperor
...................|
your father + Princess
................|
........your char
...........|
........your son (grandchild of Byz princess)

You have it exact, sir.

You begin to sense my frustration...

Playing a game through 1307 in Italy is a very time consuming task, I couldn't set things up like this again if I tried...

Really, really don't want to kill my son either before or after he takes the throne. I stopped playing the instant this happened last night, without saving. In my save, my son has not been born yet.

 

[unmerged(600321)]

He got the Empire from his mother's side (or father's side if you are the mother). Succession laws are generally based on bloodlines (gavelkind, seniority, and primogeniture are, elective is not). You are not of the blood of the Emperor of the Byzantine Empire and thus were not part of the line of inheritance.

 

[richvh]

What succession law does Byzantium have?

 

[shypixel]

What succession law does Byzantium have?

Primogeniture.

He got the Empire from his mother's side (or father's side if you are the mother). Succession laws are generally based on bloodlines (gavelkind, seniority, and primogeniture are, elective is not). You are not of the blood of the Emperor of the Byzantine Empire and thus were not part of the line of inheritance.

Nono, I am now the grandson of Old Emperor Geezer the Nth. Both of my parents are dead, my mother (Geezer's daughter and only surviving child [I may have helped a bit in that last part]) shortly after my sister was born, and my father after being brained in battle

 

[tnick0225]

What is the succession law in your own realm though? I doubt it'd have anything to do with what your describing. But I do know in earlier versions of the game sometimes the succession would do something bizarre that broke the rules such as what you've described. And usually reloading would change it back to the correct succession.

Not sure if that bug was fixed in later versions though if so, no idea what is going on in Byzantium for you.

 

[Thure]

Eventually the ERE had high crown authory? This would mean no one in another realm can inherite a title in the realm...

 

[Alyiakal]

Eventually the ERE had high crown authory? This would mean no one in another realm can inherite a title in the realm...

This definitely sounds like a case of high crown authority causing titles to not pass outside the realm. Since your character is already king of Italy, I guess that disqualifies him from the succession? It does seem odd though, because it's the top title in the realm, and actually supercedes your kingdom titles as primary title, but I guess that's how it works. I haven't really experimented much with that aspect of crown authority to really know.

 

[unmerged(281782)]

Yes, I've had same problems with CA. Putting your kinsman onto the throne of duchy or even county outside of ERE removes them from succession line for duchy inside ERE, even though it would be totally reasonable for them just join ERE and get that duchy.

 

[jobasha]

Yes, the cause of this must definitely be CA, which means that if you die before the Emperor, your son will inherit your realm and be in turn disqualified from imperial succession; if the Emperor dies before you, your son will inherit the ERE, but when you die he will probably be unable to inherit your current titles, depending on the CA active in your lands.

So, from a gameplay perspective, you will basically switch places with the ERE, but will be unable to unify the two things (you'll still get claims though).

 

[arothuris]

High CA in ERE. If u have been putting down revolts for them, they should have high or absolute CA by now (i assume u have been into the game for quite some time since u took the whole of italy already, starting from a count). High CA means no one from outside the realm inherits. Since ur a ruler of an independent realm already, passing the title onto u means the title is passed outside the realm. Only way to change that is to join ERE as a vassal now. Since ur son does not hold a title yet, he inherits wont be seen as title pass outside of the realm, theoretically. So if u dun wanna serve the baselius as a vassal, u will have to hope he dies before u, and let ur son inherits, if u want the ERE. And u will have to make sure italy dun have high CA before u die, or ur son wont inherit it once hes the baselius of ERE.