Influence & Innovative changes

[BloodAsp]

Hi,

I decided to rebalance ideas slightly on my own. It is very easy, so why not
I love Influence, and it is quite solid secondary pick, but I would like to buff it a bit.
My ideas:
Buffer States -> Change relations bonus from +1 to +2
Postal Service (probably one of the worst ideas in the game) - + 1 Diplomat
After these changes I think you can chose between Diplo and Inf, instead of taking both...

Innovative is waaay worse:
Patron of the Arts - something? Something with Prestige?
Empiricism - such a strong word for meager 50% Innovativness gain?
Scientific Revolution - ok, Maybe buff Entrancement costs to 15%
Dynamic Court - ok, but move bonus here
Print Culture - I mean seriously, next ideas should be called Laser tech and give + 1 prestige. These are HUGE achievements!!!
Optimism - Yeah, best idea here gives bonus just for being happy
Formalized Officer Corps - no changes
Bonus - +5% Admin Efficiency

I would welcome suggestions.

 

[Darth.]

Buffer States -> Change relations bonus from +1 to +2

That's too much imo

Postal Service (probably one of the worst ideas in the game) - + 1 Diplomat

While I'm not opposed to Influence giving an extra diplomat, I do think you're very much underestimating that idea. Having your diplomats, merchants and colonists travel faster when playing an empire spread across the world, is very much desirable (less so for merchants but you get the point).

Innovative is waaay worse:

Innovative is a very strong first pick.

Empiricism - such a strong word for meager 50% Innovativness gain?

50% Innovative gain is quite a bit and really adds up over the run.

Scientific Revolution - ok, Maybe buff Entrancement costs to 15%

If you mean embracement costs...why? Just take a loan. And 10% tech cost reduction is huge. It does not need to be buffed at all.

Print Culture - I mean seriously, next ideas should be called Laser tech and give + 1 prestige. These are HUGE achievements!!!

Not everything is about powergaming and min-maxing. It's a game, things need to fit a theme. And this very much does.

Optimism - Yeah, best idea here gives bonus just for being happy

I hope you're being genuine and not sarcastic here, but it's the internet so hard to make out.

Bonus - +5% Admin Efficiency

Lmao what? No. Just...no. You get that from splendor bonus and 5% Admin Efficiency is huge, especially for something you can get as a first idea group. And why would you remove -25% Advisor costs? That's one of the best bonuses in the idea group.

Even the prestige decay is quite useful to ensure a constant 100 prestige when paired with other modifiers. innovative is a very solid ideagroup that helps generate and save a lot of mana over the course of a game, and some really great policies attached to it.

 

[BloodAsp]

Regarding Postal Service we will have to agree to disagree. The best I can say about that idea is that it fits the theme....
Regarding Innovative: I don't think it can rival (at it's current state) Admin & Humanist. Even Religious & Economic (for tall play) will be better.
5% admin efficiency is not THAT much if you compare it to 25% Core-creation cost from Admin, or Deus Vult, or being completely immune to Religious Civil War.
Granted it gives you discount on core creation, prow. warscore, and AE, Vassal Integration, but that's just 5%... I will probably play test it, as in Idea Groups Expanded! Mod you only get 2.5%.
What are your thoughts on monarch_XXX_power modifiers? Do you think they work ok?

 

[EarlKonrad]

I won't repeat what other have said but I somewhat echo their sentiment.

The best place for suggestions is the suggestion subforum, not here.

 

[wielkiciensteam]

Regarding Innovative: I don't think it can rival (at it's current state) Admin & Humanist. Even Religious & Economic (for tall play) will be better.

You are wrong with innovativness. If taken as first idea at as a right country (republic mainly) you can get massive innovativness without ever overpaying for tech. Passive 50% growth bonus is huge, if you have enough MP you can easily snipe 2 first idea groups as first in the world meaning 19.5 innovativness just from ideas within first 30 years of gameplay. We assume that you also are the first to take level 4 and 5 techs, meaning in your first 30 years you have over 30 innovativness. If you just keep up with tech you get 1 innovativness every 10 year. If you end your campaign around 1700 this means that you without paying anything extra have 55 innovativness. More inno you have the more likely you are to get events increasing innovativness (1, 2 or 3 points) so you often get around 10 points of inno every 100 years. That puts us at something like 70 inno in 1700 without ever paying more for techs. Innovative idea group also have one game-changer idea, IMO - -25% advisor cost reduction. This basically means that you get +0.5 more MP in each category per month pre 1500. Not to mention tech discount.
When it comes to the bonuses of inno - it's debatable whether it's really worth it. But even -3% all MP pre 1500 is huge bonus, IMO. Tech, development, coring - all this things you spend massive amount of points and sacrificing first idea group may be worth it in some cases.
I don't recommend to take inno as big nation like France, England, Ottomans, Hungary etc., or as a nation that will struggle with keeping on with institutions or techs (non-Europeans, everything east of Bohemia) but for smaller tags it will make your life easier later on.
Innovative ideas are only worth taking if:
1. you can ensure to have lots of MP
2. you can be sure to stay up with tech
3. you start small
4. you don't have to struggle for survival in the first 30 years (Albania, Byzantium, Navarra, most vassals).

Tags that are great for innovativness as first idea:
Italians, Aragon, Low Lands, Hanza, Teutons/Livonian, most HRE princes (republic or monarchy with good ruler), Scotland.

 

[MachopPower69]

I would like a modifier increasing innovativeness like +0.005 per month

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Doing inno napkin math doesn't change that it's a bad idea group in SP, even taken first.

Not only does it not past muster of good player expansion/experience, it also fails mathematically. When comparing idea groups the correct approach would be to throw out all innovativeness you'd gain regardless of the pick, after which the already-questionable bonuses are less attractive.

Small tags also need more efficient expansion, and even modest expansion paces allow administrative to dunk on innovative.

 

[iClipse]

I agree with the general premise. Influence and innovative ideas both are lackluster.

Innovative ideas are a very fun group to take, but not very competitive. They have some good things going for them, but could use a lot more.

Prestige decay: meh
Innovativeness gain: great in some circumstances. Good in most, but hardly worth taking the idea group for.
- tech cost: the only reason why the idea group doesn't fall flat on its face
+ possible advisor: filler, terrible
+ institution spread: like how does this help you at all. Either you get the institution or not. At best it saves like 2 years of extra spread in your provinces
- monthly war exhaustion: good, but it's a bonus you can get from DoF or policies too and having a little bit of it, is all you need
+ leader without upkeep: it's more a QoL idea group than actually helpful, since you don't need to change generals on your armies as much. Otherwise, completely wasted idea slot
- advisor costs: awesome if stacked with other advisor cost reductions, but at the end of the day it just saves money, which can be achieved with other idea groups too.

All in all, innovative ideas leaves much to be desired. Maybe government reform progress could find its place in this group? But I'll leave the balancing to the devs.

Influence ideas are just diplomatic ideas but worse. It should be better at keeping your disloyal subjects in line, but in reality is decent relations almost everything you need, which is what diplomatic does, but better. In most runs, influence ideas still get taken, but just after you take diplomatic first, which is an uninteresting choice. Usually by the endgame because your integrating many client states.

Influence ideas can help keeping big colonial nations in line though, but it's not enough.

 

[Cavalry]

paying debt for colonial nations is great way to keep them loyal. So give them +4 gold per month for colonies but not too much to let them go into debt!

 

[BloodAsp]

Hi,

Finally I decided on secondary bonus to postal service (accept_vassalization_reasons = 5/10 - TBD)

As for Innovative:

bonus = {
all_power_cost = -0.05
}

patron_of_art = {
idea_cost = -0.05

}
empiricism = {
innovativeness_gain = 0.5
}
scientific_revolution = {
technology_cost = -0.1
embracement_cost = -0.15
global_institution_spread = 0.25
}
dynamic_court = {
advisor_pool = 1
advisor_cost = -0.25
}
print_culture = {
monarch_diplomatic_power = 1
monarch_admin_power = 1
monarch_military_power = 1
}
optimism = {
war_exhaustion = -0.05
}
formalized_officer_corps = {
free_leader_pool = 1
}

Will test it in new Campaign later on

 

[wielkiciensteam]

Hi,

Finally I decided on secondary bonus to postal service (accept_vassalization_reasons = 5/10 - TBD)

As for Innovative:

bonus = {
all_power_cost = -0.05
}

patron_of_art = {
idea_cost = -0.05

}
empiricism = {
innovativeness_gain = 0.5
}
scientific_revolution = {
technology_cost = -0.1
embracement_cost = -0.15
global_institution_spread = 0.25
}
dynamic_court = {
advisor_pool = 1
advisor_cost = -0.25
}
print_culture = {
monarch_diplomatic_power = 1
monarch_admin_power = 1
monarch_military_power = 1
}
optimism = {
war_exhaustion = -0.05
}
formalized_officer_corps = {
free_leader_pool = 1
}

Will test it in new Campaign later on

Theres nothing to test, you just created the most OP idea set in the history of EU4 and most of its mods! Absolutely zero balance, congratulations!

 

[Blust]

"monarch_diplomatic_power = 1
monarch_admin_power = 1
monarch_military_power = 1 "

1 monarch point per month for each category ONLY ?

 

[BloodAsp]

I wish
That setting modifies future king stats (not the ones you get from events, so republic does not benefit).
Whole mechanism is explained here:

Ruler - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki

eu4.paradoxwikis.com

 

[MatthewP]

Hi,

Finally I decided on secondary bonus to postal service (accept_vassalization_reasons = 5/10 - TBD)

As for Innovative:

bonus = {
all_power_cost = -0.05
}

patron_of_art = {
idea_cost = -0.05

}
empiricism = {
innovativeness_gain = 0.5
}
scientific_revolution = {
technology_cost = -0.1
embracement_cost = -0.15
global_institution_spread = 0.25
}
dynamic_court = {
advisor_pool = 1
advisor_cost = -0.25
}
print_culture = {
monarch_diplomatic_power = 1
monarch_admin_power = 1
monarch_military_power = 1
}
optimism = {
war_exhaustion = -0.05
}
formalized_officer_corps = {
free_leader_pool = 1
}

Will test it in new Campaign later on

There are some cool ideas here (pun intended) and innovative could use a buff, but this is clearly way too strong. The power costs and monarch points are now the two best ideas in any idea group. I would say pick one of those and put the prestige decay back instead of the other. It still may be too much but at least it would be closer.

 

[makaramus]

I wish
That setting modifies future king stats (not the ones you get from events, so republic does not benefit).
Whole mechanism is explained here:

Ruler - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki

eu4.paradoxwikis.com

You know... thats a terrible idea
Instead make it so disinheriting heir cost reduced by %50 for monarchies
for republics make it so elected new presidents get +1 to their 2 lowest stats
for theocracies make it so we can now see their stats
for dutch republic mechanic make it so we can have 2 options for each election.
these are very strong too but atleast not strong as yours which someting like 14,400 monarch points until end of game which is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULUS XD
Sure, you can get someting smiler with admin ideas but it only provides you that much discount if you are hard core coring
your idea is "sit still and gain monarch points like gods"

 

[KRBLACK]

Spoiler: My potential INNO changes

+50% innovativeness gain -> +50% innovativeness effect
-1 year ahead of time penalty
-50% promote advisor cost
+1 random ruler stat
+20% reform progress growth
-10% idea cost

Personally, I would prefer to see the first or second option.
Changing the ''innovativeness gain'' modifier to instead increase the effect would mean INNO actually has an upgrade to offer instead of ''get innovativeness faster''.
Max innovativeness would then grant:
-15% all power cost
-1,5% army/navy tradition decay

The second option slightly eases the pain of teching up early, and in the case of MIL tech it grants you a larger window of military advantage.

 

[RobbieAB]

The problem with innovative is not that it is objectively weak. The problem is it is an admin idea group, and is relatively weak compared with administrative, humanist, etc... Fixing this is difficult, as those are pretty much on the single player optimised idea group list in the first 4 or, very possibly 5, idea group picks.

Any solution based purely in the innovative idea group is going to require producing something that ends up being ridiculously overpowered, if only because the alternative admin idea groups are ridiculously overpowered.

 

[Reman]

The problem with innovative is not that it is objectively weak. The problem is it is an admin idea group, and is relatively weak compared with administrative, humanist, etc... Fixing this is difficult, as those are pretty much on the single player optimised idea group list in the first 4 or, very possibly 5, idea group picks.

Any solution based purely in the innovative idea group is going to require producing something that ends up being ridiculously overpowered, if only because the alternative admin idea groups are ridiculously overpowered.

There's an option at the game start that can let you pick unbalanced idea groups, e.g. you can pick 4 admin groups in a row. This option is ironman compatible, and so lots of top players use it. Even with it enabled though, innovative still isn't a very good idea group. Certainly not compared to top tiers like Admin and Humanist. Not even compared to more middling groups like Influence, Offensive, or even Expansion.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Influence ideas are just diplomatic ideas but worse. It should be better at keeping your disloyal subjects in line, but in reality is decent relations almost everything you need, which is what diplomatic does, but better. In most runs, influence ideas still get taken, but just after you take diplomatic first, which is an uninteresting choice. Usually by the endgame because your integrating many client states.

Influence reduces annexation cost, a lot if you also have administrative due to the policy. This gives it serious use in late game SP as those client states are ~half the cost to annex with it than without it. Which also means you're annexing them faster.

For TAGs without CCR in their NIs this keeps up with making territory cores in terms of point-efficiency, but allows you to offload limitations like overextension/coring time/admin points. In exchange you can be limited on DIP points, diplomats available, and subject opinion. That claiming hegemon breaks the ability to do this is one of the reasons taking hegemon sucks.

Finally, if you go revolutionary target the influence finisher makes it so that you get 0 DIP unjustified demands. Even before that unjustified demands can save a lot of DIP for anybody going humanist rather than religious (and not playing hordes)...and most positions/religions prefer humanist.

Influence is far and away better than innovative in SP and outcompetes more than half the idea groups in EU 4 (most military groups, diplo groups other than diplomatic, admin groups other than admin/humanist are weaker). It was nerfed by giving its AE reduction, though the developer standards used to make idea group balance changes at that time were not coherent unfortunately.