Infantry OP?

[kviiri]

This sounds like a lot of wishful thinking given that the Best Hearts of Iron 4 Player Ever just throws rifles at schoolchildren and shovels them into his front lines, training be damned.

I kinda agree, but do remember that he's constantly being pestered to "show more stuff, show more stuff". Daniel's making rushed moves that he'd probably avoid if he had the time to diversify. The real problem is, his hasty strategies seem to work quite well.

 

[Zaku]

I kinda agree, but do remember that he's constantly being pestered to "show more stuff, show more stuff". Daniel's making rushed moves that he'd probably avoid if he had the time to diversify. The real problem is, his hasty strategies seem to work quite well.

Well he is playing on normal difficulity. I can faceroll any video game ai on normal difficulity, and this game will not be an exception.

 

[kalauer]

Mountaineers cost 140 infantry equipment while infantry cost 100.

Yes, MOU are special units, just as MAR and PAR. And the bonuse they get for mountains can make them a very tough obstacle.

True, when you don't fight in mountains, you should not care. But the same is true for MAR when you do not do naval invasions or PAR when you have no strong air force.

Besides, they have higher ORG than INF. Not enough to make up for the costs alone, but they are still better in any terrain 1on1.

 

[kalauer]

Well he is playing on normal difficulity. I can faceroll any video game ai on normal difficulity, and this game will not be an exception.

Chess? Go?

 

[Denkt]

Infantry can win you a war but they may not be good for the long term. Like in the stream we saw Hungary taking massive manpower losses and manpower is the resources that you can not really increase as you can not recruit much foreign manpower.

 

[Gort11]

Infantry can win you a war but they may not be good for the long term. Like in the stream we saw Hungary taking massive manpower losses and manpower is the resources that you can not really increase as you can not recruit much foreign manpower.

That's just 'cause it's Hungary, and their population of 9 million simply isn't that big. All them having manpower issues proves is that manpower can't be conquered in the same way as industry can.

We've yet to see anyone actually limited by manpower - everyone who has lost a war in WWW has lost it due to not having enough infantry on the field. Manpower has been a theoretical limitation only - industry has been the real limiter.

For a low manpower country, perhaps making puppets is a better strategy than outright occupation.

 

[Zaku]

We've yet to see anyone actually limited by manpower - everyone who has lost a war in WWW has lost it due to not having enough infantry on the field. Manpower has been a theoretical limitation only - industry has been the real limiter.

I guess you didn't see the first MP WWW where Johan had huge problems with manpower.
Manpower is a reasource you have plenty early on, but as soon as you are out you can't do much to replenish it.

 

[kalauer]

I guess you didn't see the first MP WWW where Johan had huge problems with manpower.
Manpower is a reasource you have plenty early on, but as soon as you are out you can't do much to replenish it.

Johan just did not want to use the sctrictest recruitment laws for some time. You can even look at the latest Episode of the MP WWW, where Johan literally has millions of men ready to serve.

But this is of course the Version in which we saw all of annexed SU going to arms for Germany, so... Hard to get any conclusion from it.

 

[Zaku]

Johan just did not want to use the sctrictest recruitment laws for some time. You can even look at the latest Episode of the MP WWW, where Johan literally has millions of men ready to serve.

But this is of course the Version in which we saw all of annexed SU going to arms for Germany, so... Hard to get any conclusion from it.

Johan burned 5-6 million menpower in the last few episodes. He was on all adults serve in th end.

And Daniel also only had MP because the Soviet Union was bugged and they had no army.

 

[kalauer]

Johan burned 5 million menpower in the last 2 episodes. He was on all adults serve in th end.

He has total losses of 1.63 million in the end and appr. 6 Million in Manpower. (1:09:37)

 

[Denkt]

They have reduced how much manpower you can get since that stream while the penalties for harsh recruitment laws are as crippling as ever.

 

[Zaku]

He has total losses of 1.63 million in the end and appr. 6 Million in Manpower. (1:09:37)

he had 11 million at the 10th episode and 5 mill at the end.

The losses counter was bugged. It reseted from time to time.

 

[kalauer]

he had 11 million at the 10th episode and 5 mill at the end.

Which, combined with the losses, indicate rather code adjustment. Point to it is that Johan was never short of manpower per se, but due to his laws (for some time).

The losses counter was bugged. It reseted from time to time.

But only to UK? Or how much did Germany lose then?

edit: wrong order of quotes/answers corrected

 

[Zaku]

Which, combined with the losses, indicate rather code adjustment. Point to it is that Johan was never short of manpower per se, but due to his laws (for some time).

He was never low on MP, but 1 more year and he would have been done for. Also all men serve is a very harsh policy, it gives massive penalties to the industry.

 

[kalauer]

He was never low on MP, but 1 more year and he would have been done for. Also all men serve is a very harsh policy, it gives massive penalties to the industry.

I disagree on the first part. He did not lose 5 million man. The second part is true. But the trade-off between IC and manpower is not the issue here, is it?

He lost part of his manpowe rbetween 45:00 and 48:00 in part 10. I'll try to find it but it seems to me he reversed a policy. He surely did not loose 200 divisions there.

edit: It is off-Screen. But at 45:20 you can see him look into his policies and you almost hear him think about reducing it, it's kind of funny.

 

[Zaku]

I disagree on the first part. He did not lose 5 million man. The second part is true. But the trade-off between IC and manpower is not the issue here, is it?

I don't know what the issue is, you're the one who claimed that Johan was not using the strictest laws for a time. In the end both of them were on all adults serve, so they were running out of MP and had to make sacrifices to keep some reserves.
Germany basically took a bugged AI USSR for free, and even then he only had 4-5 mill men at the end with the 2nd harshest law. UK gained 6 million with a law change which seems to be a bit off. I think it was bugged and he got the MP from the French union as well.

 

[kalauer]

I don't know what the issue is, you're the one who claimed that Johan was not using the strictest laws for a time. In the end both of them were on all adults serve, so they were running out of MP and had to make sacrifices to keep some reserves.
Germany basically took a bugged AI USSR for free, and even then he only had 4-5 mill men at the end with the 2nd harshest law. UK gained 6 million with a law change which seems to be a bit off.

Now I also don't know what the issue is. I said Johan was never short of Manpower and showed you per timestamp that he (most likely) reverse his policy, thus havin 5 Million instead of 11 Million men in the end of Episode 10.

I understood that you Claim he was short on Manpower?

On this, I disagree, since with 5 Million available and 6 Million more as potential, while havin lost less than 2 Million, this seems anything but "short" on manpower.

 

[Zaku]

Now I also don't know what the issue is. I said Johan was never short of Manpower and showed you per timestamp that he (most likely) reverse his policy, thus havin 5 Million instead of 11 Million men in the end of Episode 10.

I understood that you Claim he was short on Manpower?

On this, I disagree, since with 5 Million available and 6 Million more as potential, while havin lost less than 2 Million, this seems anything but "short" on manpoer.

Look at my op of this discussion.
I replied to Gort11 as he was saying that MP was never a limitation, but industry was. I made a point that in the first WWW both players were starting to run out of manpower. Both had to increase their MP laws to a point where they started to get industrial penalties, just to stay in the game. This means that indeed he was short on MP.

An other good point Denkt made is that they nerfed the last few recuitment laws by a lot. If we would use a current build both of them would be on scraping the barrel in 1945. (and possibbly Daniel would have lost the game because a non bugged USSR would easily wipe his remaining few million MP.)

 

[kalauer]

Look at my op of this discussion.
I replied to Gort11 as he was saying that MP was never a limitation, but industry was. I made a point that in the first WWW both players were starting to run out of manpower. Both had to increase their MP laws to a point where they started to get industrial penalties, just to stay in the game.

Yes, I got that. But the conclusion that "having to use a policy that gives penalties to IC" equals "being short on Manpower" is wrong, for every criterion I see.

On top, logically, when increasing Manpower decreases IC (which we know), and IC, as itself, is not so much a Limitation (which was claimed and not challenged), Manpower is no Limitation as Long as it does only decrease IC. By this Definition, you are only "short on Manpower" when you can not get it at all, not when "it harms your IC".

Now the part with the IC-decrease can be challenged; but in the end, what @Gort11 said is true: you can conquer IC easily. And you can get Manpower by sacrifising IC. So "Limitation" on Manpower sets in when you are out of laws to tighten.

Also, the part with the "burning through 5 Million man" obviously is not true. So having 5 Million man is a very huge pillow to rest on, when you only lost 2 Million in the years before. Johan might even had been able to reduce the policy one more step.

Bottom line: By every Definition of "being short"; I stand to the Claim Johan never was on Manpower in the Multiplayer WWW.

 

[Zaku]

Yes, I got that. But the conclusion that "having to use a policy that gives penalties to IC" equals "being short on Manpower" is wrong, for every criterion I see.

Maybe you use a different criteria than me. WW2 was an attrition based war, both in terms of manpower and in industry. The sooner you can reduce the enemy's capacity to send well equipped troops to the frontline, the sooner you destroy them. If the enemy has -40% or-30% malus on their industry because they ran out of manpower, I would call it running short on men. The same thing happened with Germany between 1943-45. The wehrmacht had 12 million men in 1944 and still they were running low on manpower.