Infantry: Motorized VS Mechanized

[Jon Shafer]

Okay, I was taking a (yet another) look at the units webpage/FAQ link, and here's the main stats for Mechanized VS Motorized infantry divisions.

Values in red are those in which Motorized Infantry have the advantage, orange where Mechanized have it.

Type			Mech.	Motor.

Cost			[color=red]8[/color]	[color=red]6[/color]
Build Time		120	120
Manpower		10	10
Max Speed		[color=red]8[/color]	[color=red]8[/color]
Ground Defense		[color=orange]4[/color]	[color=orange]3[/color]
Air Defense		1	1
Soft Attack		3	3
Hard Attack		[color=orange]2[/color]	[color=orange]1[/color]
Air Attack		2	2
Supply Consumption	[color=red]1.5[/color]	[color=red]1[/color]
Fuel Consumption	[color=red]4[/color]	[color=red]0.5[/color]

Is there something I'm missing here?
Motorized infantry seems to cost less in ICs, supply and eight times less in fuel than mechanized infantry, for an increased ground defense of one, and hard attack of 1. This seems like quite a rip off, IMO. Mechanized infantry ought to have some sort of movement advantage over the motorized sort, since that was the main reason to use half-tracks over trucks: more mobility and cross-country capability when roads are scarce. When would anyone want to use Mechanized over Motorized? Are there some hidden benefits that Mech. Inf have over Mot. Inf?

 

[Jon Shafer]

Though I appreciate all the work the betas put into the tech list, I find it to be very hard to read, and don't get really much out of it. Thought I've looked through them quite a lot, I still fail to understand how things connect (what the prereqs and coreqs are for certain units, how certain techs benefit certain units, etc.).

Maybe one of you guys could post some of the techs related to this issue, how they connect, and how they benefit the units the issue at hand is concerned with?

 

[Jon Shafer]

I looked in the armor improvement techs, and yes, it appears as though mechs get quite a lot of advances that help it out, while motorized is pretty much stuck where it is. I'd come up with some sort of analysis, but I'm still having a bit of trouble reading exactly what the techs do, and the stuff I think I understand doesn't seem to make sense with what I already know (many techs where it says "type = supply_consumption which = mechanized when = now value = -1"... what does that mean? Supply cost decreased by 1? But the values are already at or very near to 1...).

 

[Jon Shafer]

From the looks of some of the techs (for the life of me I can't find them... I saw them earlier, but I can't find them again. Something that decreased supply cost of both tanks and mechs... doesn't appear to be on the same spreadsheet outlining the techs that give allow new models of tanks... argh...), Mechs will be far superior to motorized infantry due to the sheer number of tech upgrades that deals with them.

I'm still wondering how things link up here though.

What does each code within the tech chart list mean? I'm pretty sure the "which ... value" statement is used to increment the values of things by a certain amount (percent for some, like shore attack, desert attack, etc. and actual values, like for soft or hard attack), but I'm not sure about that. If so, how does that figure in with the starting values given to particular divisions? Like the example I gave earlier, the starting mech supply cost is 1.5, but there appears to be a few techs that "value = -1" it, but I guess I'm just not understanding exactly what's going on...

"type = " : what 'variable' is to be changed?
"which = " : some property of the type?
"value = " : the particular 'which' that is to be incremented?
"(when) now value = " : ?
"deactivate" : allow a new tech to be researched?
"new_model" : unlock a new model of tank/unit?

 

[Jon Shafer]

All stats for units later are given as core values, just like the stock '36 values. The only time that they change is due to the various tech advances... compiling a list of all those would be rather time consuming, but I'd be willing to do it if I could learn how to read some of the stuff there dealing with techs... (and find that stupid page which had all those other mech advances that I can't find anymore )

 

[Jon Shafer]

Mweisner, good point with the extra tech research costs... don't a lot of techs that improve mechs improve tanks as well though?

So...
"type = max_organization which = battleship when = now value = 5"
... means that all battleships now have their organization value increased by 5?

"type = max_organization which = battleship value = 5"
... would mean that you have to 'upgrade' first to recieve the organization bonus? Or is there syntax I'm missing in that line?

So the 'deactivation' makes certain tank models in the same 'field' 'unresearchable' then? How exactly does that work? Example please?

Originally posted by State Machine
Scream!

Oops, I was comparing Mechanized to Militia...

Don't worry, it happens to us all... well, maybe.

Just don't scream like that again.

Any particular reason why the fuel cost for mechs starts off higher than those for light/medium tanks? I can see the argument for light tanks, but I'm not seeing how a halftrack could by default use more fuel than a 'pseudo-Panther' division. Or are there more techs that modify that too?

Better end this post before I start confusing myself and cross-posting between threads or something.

 

[Jon Shafer]

I figured I was missing a word or two in that upgrade line.

I hereby bestow your dignity back again SM, just be more careful next time.

Okay anyways.

What's the difference between the lines here?

"type = river_attack which = mechanized value = 10"
"type = hard_attack which = armor when = now value = 1"

The first line seems to add a percentage (?) to a certain value (mechs' river attack).
The second line apparently adds a value of 1 instantly to armor hard attack values.

Why does the second line require a time tag ("when = now"), while the first line doesn't?

 

[Jon Shafer]

Okay, there's something obvious here I'm missing, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up, so...

Why would you ever want to research a BLT D) of a lower than the 40mm+ model (30, 20, etc.)?

 

[Jon Shafer]

So you have to research the 20mm, 30mm, 40mm gun models in sequence, but you can only build a tank model mounting one of them? So it's either build the 20mm as soon as you the chance, but not be able to use further BLT research, or wait for the 40mm model and not be able to use your previous research to construct any tanks until then?

 

[Jon Shafer]

Ahhh, okay, that's what I meant, guess I just didn't phrase it right (I was excluding other tank types (ILT) from the example there).

Okay, one final thing before I let you be.
Can you run through an example of exactly how you would research a tank model, what you could do to 'improve' it using certain techs (gun calibre, upgrades, etc.), and how that relates to what you can build and the models available that we're shown on the unit page (tank models 1 - 38).

It's a rather complicated process, so I'd like to know I understand it.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Well, I understand the underlying concept behind what you have to do, I just don't know how to hammer it out and actually go from having ICs to use for research and turning them into something I can actually send to the battlefield.

That's basically my question... what details does that process include?

[/Edit]Post made after SM's and before mweisner's... hold on while I get caught up. [/Edit]

 

[Jon Shafer]

Okay let me try and run through the process of building a tank, and you guys can correct me if I mess up any of the process.

First, you have to have 'Welded Armor', 'Early Gear', 'Early Suspension', 'Early Engine' and 'Basic Light Tank Prototype Tests' in order to build any kind of BLT. At this point does that mean you can actually construct a finished BLT model with a machine gun only (completely neglecting any guns of a higher calibre), or do you have to research this 'design' to complete further progress on the new tank model (to move on to working on the gun)?

Okay, after that you can begin 'designing' the model of tank you want (20mm, 30mm, 40mm) once you have the required prereqs (e.g. 'Basic Equipment and Ordinance' for 20mm model). Once the 'design' research is complete, you're free to build the tank divisions to your hearts content (resources allowing, of course ).

Okay, that seems simple enough.
Then if I want to upgrade with, say, 'Armored Skirts', I would research that, then refit all of my divisions with it (unless it was "when = now", which I doubt [I hope]).

Okay, how does this design process fit in with the model list (the 38/39 models in the unit list)? Is each possibility (regarding the gun calibre) represented in a different model? So, for example, BLT possibilities would be represented with models 2 through 6, or what? What do these 'base models' represent, and how do they relate to what you're working on?

And one final note on that tech list you had mweisner... the bit about 'being researched, can be researched, etc.' is kind of confusing. Don't you need to have already researched the green techs (designated as 'can be researched') in order to research what you've listed? A rust colored tech means that you only have to be RESEARCHING (not already researched) a tech in order to be researching the colored tech as well? And how do the blue colored techs fit into this picture?

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by mweisner
I fear I've made this more complicated then it is what with my tipsy state so check the first post of any of my daigram threads for an explanation on how to read them and the significance of the colors.

So the colors are basically just representations of what they'd look like in the game? If that's the case, then I understand and maybe we'd better leave things at that.

My question about the different models was in reference to the unit list here: http://systemvoid.com/~statem/hoi_faq/units/units.htm.

What do each of the stats for those models represent?

For example, Light Tank Model 2 has a cost of 13, build time 180, manpower 7, maxspeed 15, etc. etc. etc. Where do these numbers come from? What 'model' is this describing (and why are there 10 different models of light tank?)?

 

[Jon Shafer]

After looking at the analysis linked in SM's sticky thread I think I found my answers. Thanks guys, much appreciated.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Good, glad you saw that before you typed another paragraph or two out to explain it.

It just took a bit more understanding than what I had to be able to understand the rest of the stuff that was up there.

Already I'm a HOI master... now I just need the game.

 

[Darkrenown]

No rest for the betas! I have a question

Do you have to 'pay' for unit upgrades? If so it depend what tech your upgrading to? What about upgrading multiply steps, eg does upgrading your BLT with improved optics and armoured skirts cost more/take longer than just adding the skirts?