Infantry Equipment Upgrades?

[Anton Rex]

As we all know vehicles such as tanks, planes and ships can be upgraded in different categories such as guns, armor, engine, and reliability.

As far as I am aware there are no similar options for infantry equipment such as rifles, sub machine guns, heavy machine guns etc.

Is it possible to create an upgrade system for small arms and and why stop there when we could perhaps include it for uniforms, helmets and other requirements for infantry.

I can imagine the categories for small arms to be reliability, caliber (increases soft attack, less reliable) weight (increases movement speed?).
For uniforms or infantry equipment, there could be adaptability (less penalty in jungles, winter, desert etc), material or fabric(increases protection but makes it less adaptable),

Do you guys have any ideas?

 

[77Hawk77]

Is it even possible to make different variations of small arms? I don't think it is.

But if it was, i think it would be more general, like SMG, Rifle, LMG, Grenade upgrades for example.

 

[agentgb]

hmmm? thats a pity, you could upgrade, small arms, support weapons etc in hoi3, i hope the same is true in hoi4, camo was a big factor, and i believe the finnish designed there rifle to adopt russian rounds, to save having to produce ammo, although that may be represented with a bonus to less supplies consumed during a battle phase.

 

[77Hawk77]

You can upgrade them, but what i think he means is that he wants to make variations of them like the +1 soft attack for tanks after you get combat experience.

 

[Anton Rex]

Is it even possible to make different variations of small arms? I don't think it is.

But if it was, i think it would be more general, like SMG, Rifle, LMG, Grenade upgrades for example.

One example of rifle upgrade is the ag 42 Ljungman and the B version which included better sight and was somewhat safer to use.

 

[77Hawk77]

One example of rifle upgrade is the ag 42 Ljungman and the B version which included better sight and was somewhat safer to use.

Yeah, but how would you translate that into game data?

 

[womble]

The incremental difference you could add to a rifle or LMG is triflingly small and not worth modelling on top of the research tree upgrades.

 

[jamesd]

One of the issues I have with the infantry equipment is that many "upgrades" consisted of adding a better LMG or SMG or mortar to existing equipment. From what I can see in game we'll produce say infantry equipment level 1 and it will be level 1 forever, however in actuality a nation could manufacture a few SMG's and light mortars to turn Lvl 1 equipment into Lvl 2 equipment while still using the existing rifles.

 

[77Hawk77]

Like what is the difference in quality between Grease gun and Thompson, the grease gun was probably not as good as the thompson but made later. so how would that fit in.

 

[Oakfan]

The incremental difference you could add to a rifle or LMG is triflingly small and not worth modelling on top of the research tree upgrades.

Have to agree here. For a grand strategy game, I would not like having to modify individual small arms to manufacture. I cant imagine it would have that big of an impact on the game. If it did, that would be a bigger problem.

 

[LordOfWar16]

I think it is better the way it is with the researchable upgrades of support equipment which combines mortars, mg's etc) and infantry equipment.

An smallarms weapon simply doesnt improve on such an large scale as ships, planes or tanks for example. You can maybe do some smaller adjustments, but for big changes that fit in the scope of HoI IV, you basicly need to develop a new gun. It is not like you could revolutionize the k98, without effectively making an new gun/successor like the Gewehr 41 from it.

 

[Wyrm]

It should be moddable if someone wants to go through the hassle

But as infantry weaponry goes, you would most likely not make improvements in a large scale.
Say, a new service rifle would improve soft attack with 0.3 and a new MG with 0.2.

making versions of existing weapons would make so small changes as to not be noticable.

The comparison between Thompson and Greasegun can be seen in most countries participating. Reducing quality to improve speed and efficiency of manufacture. This is one of few ways I can possibly see a "variant" be implemented on small-arms.

 

[Liely1710]

The way I feel with the current HoI4 weapons tech tree is that its really simple. So simple that its necessary to upgrade the weapons. Whereas in Hoi3, you had the option, should I focus on support weapons or light artillery for added bonus and not focus as much on regular arms.

In HoI4 as it stands, I see it that you NEED to research these upgrades regardless of gameplay. not doing so is suicide.

 

[Zaku]

Whereas in Hoi3, you had the option, should I focus on support weapons or light artillery for added bonus and not focus as much on regular arms.

You had the option, but if you didn't upgrade your infantry techs your divisions were massacred in hoi3.

 

[dav77-b]

The way I feel with the current HoI4 weapons tech tree is that its really simple. So simple that its necessary to upgrade the weapons. Whereas in Hoi3, you had the option, should I focus on support weapons or light artillery for added bonus and not focus as much on regular arms.

In HoI4 as it stands, I see it that you NEED to research these upgrades regardless of gameplay. not doing so is suicide.

Actually the opposite is the case.

In HoI3 you upgrade all 4 infantry techs up to date. Always. All 2 years. Upgrade cost was a joke. There was no real decision making.

In HoI4 researching new equipment does not simply makes your army better. You need to produce it first. And switching the production costs efficency. And the old equipment can not be upgraded. It need to be replaced. Upgrading to better Infantry equipment can loose you the war. The IC you spent on the guns could have been invested in tanks/fighters etc.

 

[Overestimate]

Was there any indication from pdx that we would not have the ability to make infantry model variants? Because the gap between 1918 and 1940 would seem huge and also indicate that all equipment is the same globally which would be lame.

For me the difference doesn't have to be tech itself but rather about quality and availability of more advanced arms. E.g. updated variant of 1918 tech could indicate the presence of some squad AT and automatic weapons, while in 1940 tech these are standard issue and upgrading simply indicates the increase of such weapons in quality and per squad. which is historical, as it seems that usmc for instance went from 1 to 3 BARs per squad over the course of the war.

 

[Liely1710]

Actually the opposite is the case.

In HoI3 you upgrade all 4 infantry techs up to date. Always. All 2 years. Upgrade cost was a joke. There was no real decision making.

In HoI4 researching new equipment does not simply makes your army better. You need to produce it first. And switching the production costs efficency. And the old equipment can not be upgraded. It need to be replaced. Upgrading to better Infantry equipment can loose you the war. The IC you spent on the guns could have been invested in tanks/fighters etc.

hmmm... maybe thats why I always lost.... LOL

 

[LordOfWar16]

Was there any indication from pdx that we would not have the ability to make infantry model variants? Because the gap between 1918 and 1940 would seem huge and also indicate that all equipment is the same globally which would be lame.

For me the difference doesn't have to be tech itself but rather about quality and availability of more advanced arms. E.g. updated variant of 1918 tech could indicate the presence of some squad AT and automatic weapons, while in 1940 tech these are standard issue and upgrading simply indicates the increase of such weapons in quality and per squad. which is historical, as it seems that usmc for instance went from 1 to 3 BARs per squad over the course of the war.

Technicly the PzIV, T-34 and M4 Sherman (or what is on the same tech level) are the exact same tank ingame only with an different name aswell, only that the country specific companies for major countries you use to research them with give bonuses and penalties on their stats. Thats the point of companies, to give each (major) nation unique equipment with unique stats.

Only having Weapon 1, Weapon 2 and Weapon 3 isnt really that big of an deal, because you need to remember that you wont suddenly start producing the new equipment as soon as it is researched in large quantities. You will gradiually switch production to maintain your efficiency and keep your troops in supply. You might even produce weapon 1 through the entirety of the war and only equip your elite divisions with weapons 3 for example. It is an massive task to completly replace the standard weaponry of an whole army, which might cause your defeat if you arent carefull and simply swap production. Germany for example wasnt able to replace the k98 with the Gewehr 41 and later the Gewehr 43 as the standard rifle of the german army, because they couldnt produce enough of them. They never reached their target of 100.000 rifles a month and only about 450.000 were built in total.

 

[Salatmander]

I had a post about a topic close to this a while ago with not that much recognition.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-for-more-customization.896622/#post-20332752

I am kinda happy someone else thinks the same way like i do too and this is discussed here again now =)

I am absolutely with you Anton o7



edit (added the initial post of the thread here)

I had a little talk with a friend of mine and an idea came that i would like to throw in here, maybe it brings something up for the future (or DLCs)

Well it is known that you can change the manufacturer to tweak with the stats of your arsenal a bit.

But why stop there ?
It would be nice to be able to choose between different guns for your divisions too, so you can change a bit about the strength and weaknesses of your soldiers there.
Maybe machine guns give a bonus in defence, while Assault riffles help when you re the attacker. Some Sniper rifles are helpfull if the Divison assists in a battle that allready started (I know there would never be a complete division only equiped with Sniping-Rifles but thats just to give you an Idea what i mean.)
It could also influence the stats of the devision it self or helps in specific area types while it is worse to use in others.
This could also be implemented as a different tech tree to specialice in an aspekt or bring in another thing to trading, so you can buy a weapon type or model you do not have yourself from other countrys (just like it is with assets now)

maybe this can also be extended to tanks or aircrafts too.
Give it different techs in Armory or Gears.

I have kind of the Tech-tree in HOI 3 in mind, but maybe not THAT complicated (some visualisation helps a lot there)
Just like it is with the tech in HOI4 right now, give it 3-5 different options, maybe something where you have to make choices (either a moto that gives your planse a bit more speed/Air Combat durability or another one that extends the operation radius it has but makes it a bit more vulnarable if it meets other planes)
((still don t know how aircrafts will work exactly though))

so that much to this idea, what do you guys think of it ?

 

[Overestimate]

Technicly the PzIV, T-34 and M4 Sherman (or what is on the same tech level) are the exact same tank only with an different name aswell, only that the country specific companies for major countries you use to research them with give bonuses and penalties on their stats. Thats the point of companies, to give each (major) nation unique equipment with unique stats.

Yes, but you can also use combat experience (production companies aren't mandatory) to create upgraded variants of those designs - which I thought was kinda the point of this thread, but only for inf. models?

Only having Weapon 1, Weapon 2 and Weapon 3 isnt really that big of an deal, because you need to remember that you wont suddenly start producing the new equipment as soon as it is researched in large quantities. You will gradiually switch production to maintain your efficiency and keep your troops in supply. You might even produce weapon 1 through the entirety of the war and only equip your elite divisions with weapons 3 for example. It is an massive task to completly replace the standard weaponry of an whole army, which might cause your defeat if you arent carefull and simply swap production. Germany for example wasnt able to replace the k98 with the Gewehr 41 and later the Gewehr 43 as the standard rifle of the german army, because they couldnt produce enough of them. They never reached their target of 100.000 rifles a month and only about 450.000 were built in total.

Yes, agreed to an extent. However it's not really a matter of replacing as:

1. Increase of quantity of same old weapons in the squad (eg. simply increase in firepower per man), such as the BAR example above, the ussr pure smg squads, increase of smgs from 1 to 2 per squad in the FDF during ww2, etc. So development of firepower is not just about adding/replacing old with new fancy guns, but probably a more important factor is rather actually the increase in density of existing high firepower guns.
2. Partial or complete shift to more effective manufacturing methods and weapon models to enable 1 (eg. Mp38 vs. Mp40, ppd vs ppsh, Mg42 vs mg34, Sten/m3 vs. Thompson) which could in some cases even lead to less "fancy" weapons being produced for increased availability of high firepower per man.

Since fully upgraded model x is supposed to be roughly comparable to non-upgraded model x +1, upgrading infantry equipment makes sense as well from this perspective too. So a fully upgraded infantry 1 would have an smg, lmg and some at grenades for the investment in land combat experience as opposed to mere rifles. However inf. 2 would have those as a standard feature without experience loss, and with more mass-manufacture suited models, you can actually upgrade your inf. 2 to have 1++ smgs in the squad, add AT grenades first every trooper, etc. etc.

So from my perspective this is no different from tank models or whatever