Industrializing China

[LlywelynII]

In any case ill go 100% clerks with my national popullation asap as unciv, even the smaller pops.

Prior to Darwinism, I thought that priests were actually as/more effective...

edit: Wiki sez: As. Not more. But they're more conservative and lower consciousness, which is a good thing for maintaining the Mandate of Heaven, right?

 

[Dysken]

Prior to Darwinism, I thought that priests were actually as/more effective...

edit: Wiki sez: As. Not more. But they're more conservative and lower consciousness, which is a good thing for maintaining the Mandate of Heaven, right?

Yes it is, but then you'll have to convert them to clerks later .

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

Prior to Darwinism, I thought that priests were actually as/more effective...

edit: Wiki sez: As. Not more. But they're more conservative and lower consciousness, which is a good thing for maintaining the Mandate of Heaven, right?

Clerks were always better RP gennerators than clergy, whatever version you were playing, even before darwinism, and after darwinism the spread went even higher. Though capitalists are even much better than clerks. But capis are expensive and difficult to demote, yet i wouldn't mind setting one large pop as capi for an unciv nation for the added RP gain even if it won't build any factory's or such, when i civilize that 1 capi will become usefull anyway and really the tax from the capi will be good even withought the factory's.

Ive never used clergy much to lower millitancy or conciousness. I never really have much trouble with millitancy. there are much easier ways to get rid of millitancy than using clergy really, i tend to either go democracy and enact a bunch of non costing rights, but more often i would just hold ellections every 9 months and take pluralism or full citizinship in ellection event choices, these events lower millitancy a lot if you take the right choices, well unless youre country is uniform in state culture and religion, but usually it isn't.

Bottom line, i never use clergy, especially not for pure RP genneration, unless i would be really really poor, but clercks don't cost that much more than clergy really, and what they cost extra they make up in extra RP genneration, and trully once youre out of pops to promote the one who choose all clerks will have more RP than one who took all clergy, and an added problem is that when you civilize, them clergy is really useless for you, while the clerks will be quite usefull indeed.

Actually, iirc clergy only have the same Rp genneration speed of craftsmen really, and they are about equally expensive. Atleast it's like that in VIP for costs. So i think youre even better of promoting to all craftsmen compared to promoting to all clergy in the long run, but im pretty sure that youll get quite a lot less tax from promoted unemployed craftsmen than unemployed clergy or unemployed clerks.

 

[LlywelynII]

Clerks were always better RP gennerators than clergy,

Wiki said it was the same, but might be off.

after darwinism the spread went even higher.

Priest gen falls by 25%, clerk gen rises 25%. Population the size of China's, might not even matter all that much.

Though capitalists are even much better than clerks.

Really? Swell.

even if it won't build any factory's or such

Why wouldn't it? But you'd only want the one.

there are much easier ways to get rid of millitancy than using clergy really

Yeah. Democratizing and liberalizing.

But China isn't interested in immigrants, might want to hold onto the monarchy, can't afford social services, and consists of long-range POPs that migrate to California if you leave them unemployed long enough.

I never use clergy much either, but was thinking it might be a valid option here.

So i think youre even better of promoting to all craftsmen compared to promoting to all clergy in the long run

Eh... I wouldn't ever play a game where I "promoted" my entire population to unemployed status, and while it'd be amusing to see a Papal game with a population of only priests and soldiers, I was just suggesting the transfers for China if it doesn't require goods from the world market to pull it off since it's cash rich anyway and converting back and forth shouldn't be that big a deal.

 

[Orm]

Now, with China...my game is around 1890 now -- and the wave of
"plurality +5" events hit recently...which with my non-democracy govt,
seems to be a very bad thing? Will some -5 events even those out,
or am I just going to have to get used to 10% revolt-risk all over China
for the next 30 years? Or will China get a democracy-govt option sometime
down the road? Right now, I've got a State Property govt in.

It's the tech Idelogical Thought that gives these events. What result you get depends on what party you have in power. Liberals and socialists (including the extreme forms of those) will each give five inventions giving +5 plurality for a total of +25 for each type of party. A conservative (or reactionary) party will give five inventions giving -5 plurality for a total of -25.
Plurality is good for democracy, pretty much neutral for con-mons and bad for monarchies.

Which leads to this question -- just to see what they'd do, I took one POP
in Beijing and turned them into capi's early on, and have watched them
over time...they havent' done a thing for the whole game, that I can tell.
I thought under State Property, they could still build rails or factories, if
their $ reserves got high enough...for a brief period, their reserves did get
high, but most of the time they have been stuck in the $90's. Are capi's
pretty much pointless in State Property?

Under State Capitalism ( ) it's extremely expensive for capis to build anything so unless they have lots of cash, don't count on them building stuff. Tax them instead. They're still not completely useless, capis give a production bonus to the factories in the state they're in. IIRC the bonus is maxed out when you have 330k capis in the state, so anything over that number is a waste.

Oh, and I never saw an answer on this one: when enemy forces move into
a provence of mine and start sieging, is there a popup for that? I can find
no message-setting for that event, just for when the provence finally
falls.

I'd like to have that too.

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

Really? Swell.

Iirc capitalists have double the RP genneration of clerks, and triple that of craftsmen and clergy iirc ... not to be underestimated thus, especially when playing for ex an unciv with very few national pops and having 1 sizeable pop in that.

I'm pretty sure you could speed up the civilization process in VIP a hell of a lot by promoting youre culture pops to capitalists instead of clerks as i do now, but afcourse the capi costs are significant, you can get clerks faster, it would only be interresting once you have all youre culture pops to clerks already.

Priest gen falls by 25%, clerk gen rises 25%. Population the size of China's, might not even matter all that much.

Yeah you really need a lot of conversions as China before you can jack up the tech speed. Civilizing China has gotten harder than some other smaller ones. Youd even want to almost loose most of youre culture pops as China by giving land to another (later easily coquerable) unciv. That would help the civilizing effort quite a bit, well in VIP:R atleast.

Why wouldn't it? But you'd only want the one.

It's difficult for capitalists to gain cash in unciv country's to the point that they can build factory's, even with no tax or tarrifs.

But China isn't interested in immigrants, might want to hold onto the monarchy, can't afford social services, and consists of long-range POPs that migrate to California if you leave them unemployed long enough.

I never use clergy much either, but was thinking it might be a valid option here.

Never seen them emmigrate unless you have high millitancy. If i play with an unciv i usually put all my national pops to clerks even withought factory's so they are unemployed but ive never seen them emmigrate because of that.

But in monarchy, and lesser extent con monarchy, it is important to keep conciousness down, so yes it can have its use, but really only 1 clergy pop per state is needed irrc correctly, and about every nation starts with that already, including China, so any new clerks won't make a difference.

Eh... I wouldn't ever play a game where I "promoted" my entire population to unemployed status

Why not? Gamey as it might sound, promoting pops away from RGO's to unemployed clerks won't hurt youre economy, it might actually improve it really. The middle strata pays more tax than the poor strata and even unemployed clerks gennerate cash strangly enough, so while youre education cost will go up along with RP speed, youre probably not going to see a difference in youre budget because of the extra tax you get from middle strata. It's silly but it's true. it's different though fro craftsmen since they are poor strata.

I was just suggesting the transfers for China if it doesn't require goods from the world market to pull it off since it's cash rich anyway and converting back and forth shouldn't be that big a deal.

it would be highly annoying though IMo to have to repromote the about 1000 culture pops China has (if not more) click click click click click click clickerdeclickclick click click etc ... (that being one of the reasons why i don't play China much)

 

[RELee]

clickerdeclickclick

Your mouse broke right there.

 

[unmerged(5023)]

Your mouse broke right there.

What makes that even funnier, is that is exactly what I was doing when my
mouse/cursor DID die when *I* was playing China recently (and posted the
thread about "HELP - is there a way to savegame with the keyboard) :rofl:

 

[unmerged(5023)]

OK,its 1903 now, and after getting the +5 pluralty events, I realized I had
the Republicans in power in China...(as a monarchy). They're anach-lib,
so in a country where 63.2% of the people are conservative and only
19.8% liberal, that doesn't seem like a good idea...so time to go to a con
govt, and see if we get our pluralty back down, since the only real choices
we seem to have for govt are monarchies. The Beiyang are the only
conservative option, so I put them in...I expected *some* disruption from
a change like this, but wow....

Leaning PreChange PostChange
-------------------------------------
Cons 63.2 46.9
Liberal 19.8 15.3
React 15.5 31.9
Socialist 1.4 1.0
Anarch/Lib 0.1 4.6
Comm 0.0 0.4

SO why would going from an anarch-lib govt, to a cons govt, cause
almost 1/3 of my conservatives become something else? Is it just
impossible to change govt under a monarchy like this?

 

[unmerged(96020)]

Well, most of your conservative population became reactionary instead. Reactionary in Vicky is just the extreme version of conservatism, and conservative pops become reactionary when their militancy is high. You raised the people's militancy by arbitrary change of party, so it makes sense really. Whenever you change a party by your prerogative, you cause a one-time increase in militancy across the board.

Wait for them to calm down and that 31% reactionary pops will come back to being conservative, or liberalize and snub them dinosaurs anyway, better in the long run if you want to massively industrialize, clerks are often liberals and craftsmen liberal-socialists, though prepare for a few -- or not few -- revolts.

Oh, and change to a constitutional monarchy if you haven't already. Plurality -- that "bonus" you just gained because you've got either a socialist or liberal party's in power -- makes people rebellious in a monarchy, has no effect in a con-mon, and actually helps reduce militancy in a democracy (an astonishingly wonderful bonus if you like to run your country and population on the margin actually).

 

[unmerged(5023)]

OK, dumb question -- how do I switch from monarchy to con-monarch?

 

[unmerged(96020)]

Change your voting rights.

A direct change from none to universal suffrage will make you a full democracy; a more moderate change from none to wealth with make you a constitutional monarchy. I haven't changed anything to property voting ("land" or something) in ages -- I have a murderous, 1792'ish bias against aristocrats -- so I forgot what it'll do. It's a bit more complex than that but that's the general rule. Someone better than me might correct me on it.

Note, however, that it's harder to change a democracy to a constitutional monarchy or vice versa than from a dictatorship of some kind -- including a monarchy of course -- to each of them. In fact, you'll have to do it in steps. Messy and makes the people all angry by the time you're finished; so choose one of the two and stick with it.

And finally, be careful of your ruling party. If it's an "extreme" party: anarcho-liberal, communist, or reactionary -- they'll "coup" your country and change your system back to a dictatorship the first day of the next game month.

 

[unmerged(5023)]

And finally, be careful of your ruling party. If it's an "extreme" party: anarcho-liberal, communist, or reactionary -- they'll "coup" your country and change your system back to a dictatorship the first day of the next game month.

LOL - and that's exactly what happened! Just for grins, while I was
waiting on your reply, I did a save, and then went full-blown democracy;
full sufferage, free press, all parties, you name it. The election campaign
started, and then the anacro-libs overthrew the govt and took back
over as a dictatorship Guess I'll revert to the save, and play around
with it some more!

 

[unmerged(5023)]

LOL - and that's exactly what happened! Just for grins, while I was
waiting on your reply, I did a save, and then went full-blown democracy;
full sufferage, free press, all parties, you name it. The election campaign
started, and then the anacro-libs overthrew the govt and took back
over as a dictatorship Guess I'll revert to the save, and play around
with it some more!

Even more suprising to ME -- I savefile'd back and put the Beiyang party in
power, and then went full democracy...it lasted thru the elections, and the
Conservative party won...and then proceeded to become a Presidential
dictatorship again!

 

[unmerged(96020)]

You sure the Chinese "conservatives" aren't actually the reactionaries?

Moderate parties don't tend to do that in my memory. They prefer to, erm, "work the system" I guess.

If your lower-class voters are stubbornly and stupidly going extremist (what next, voting Republican? ), you might have to choose another voting level. Aside from the diplomatic value (most major nations are monarchies or constitutional monarchies, so they like you less if you turn full democracy), that's the reason most people go con-mon with wealth when they could've done universal suffrage and benefit from the plurality value.

 

[unmerged(5023)]

You sure the Chinese "conservatives" aren't actually the reactionaries? .

You're right again -- the Reactionaries won the election, and then took
over So I'll just play this one out and see where it goes - the revolts
are down to one every couple of days, from 2 a day or so -- they just might
get thru this

 

[RELee]

That's the way! Learn to take the cards that life deals you and play out your hand. If life hands you lemons, learn to make lemonade. Put your nose to the grindstone and place your shoulder against the wheel. Grin and bear it.

The rolling stone...wait.

Ok. I'm out.

 

[kalenderee]

Oh, one more thing with China: low taxes, high tariffs, maximum crimefighting.

I managed to make the Taiping (?) rebellion NOT HAPPEN. It requires a revoltrate; zero taxes cuts that down to size eventually.

Very eventually.

Expect your crack cavalry to see a certain amount of action until the revolting scum shut up.

 

[unmerged(5023)]

Well, I rode it out -- my poor units wore their boots out marching aoround
the countryside putting down rebellions, but since I was so rich, I was able
to do similar to the above poster's idea----lowered taxes as low as I could,
tariffs as low as I could, jacked up medical care, and watched the revolt
screen start turning green over time....the Taiping revolt never happened,
and China rode thru the storm.

What I *love* about these kind of games are the historical what-ifs...it
all came from winning the opium war...that kept China "viable" in this game,
which kept the other powers out, which allowed China to make GreatPower
status and be more powerful again (econ and mil), which allowed them to
defeat the Russians instead of having to give up the Vladivistok area to
them, etcetcetc. Imagine a world today, where Russia ended at Irkutsk?