• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

swilhelm73

Strong Badder then You
28 Badges
Mar 27, 2001
4.084
152
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Originally posted by Zagys
Why does there need to be sliders at all?

There should be some way to guide your society, IMO, with trade offs between different policies. It doesn't have to be sliders, of course, but sliders are what I'm used to with the EU2 engine.

You could have other things, like Civ's tax income versus scientific progress (it would make more sense for this to reduce economic growth or stability, not science, in EU terms of course).
 

Zagys

Doomsday Prophet
23 Badges
Mar 1, 2000
1.128
15
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pride of Nations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
Originally posted by swilhelm73
There should be some way to guide your society, IMO, with trade offs between different policies. It doesn't have to be sliders, of course, but sliders are what I'm used to with the EU2 engine.
It shouldn't be too complex though.

Originally posted by swilhelm73
You could have other things, like Civ's tax income versus scientific progress (it would make more sense for this to reduce economic growth or stability, not science, in EU terms of course).
Ugh, I hope not.
 

Zagys

Doomsday Prophet
23 Badges
Mar 1, 2000
1.128
15
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pride of Nations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
I just don't want domestic policy sliders to be a main focus in the game. At least not as many as there are in EU 2.
 

unmerged(16864)

Corporal
May 8, 2003
39
0
Visit site
Gah, Russia should not have THAT many problems to industrialise, I think. I disagree with the idea that Russia's size hindered industrialisation, since most of Russia was in the west anyway, both in terms of population and technology. There were two real problems for industrialisation.

Serfdom, as you said, was a big problem, but it was solved pretty neatly; the unrest was limited and controlled, and redemption payments made the nobility happy. I think this should be a feature to be considered in the game; the possibility of emancipating the serfs, and the extent at which to do this - all of this directly affecting your stability, of course.
The second problem was the nature of the Tsars; they were all too conservatory. Even Nicholas I, despite all the "Tsar reformer" crap, was a conservatory who believed in all the values about authority and tsarism (in fact, he only emancipated the serfs when forced by the Crimean War). And Alexander III and Nicholas II were both educated by the reactionary Pobedonostsev, so they didn't get much fresh ideas. This must be added to the fact that their government was chaotic and inefficient.
But except for serfdom - which as I said, should be given the option to solve to the player - it was a problem of crappy leadership of the country, not of particular social conditions. After all, look at what Sergei Witte did at the end of the 19th Century: Russia's industry made huge leaps forwards. Without World War I, it was presumable that Russia could have become an industrial power comparable to Germany before 1940. I am convinced that this could have happened much earlier, if only someone had gotten to work on it.

So conclusions? If Russia is to be given a handicap in industrialisation, this must be limited to the nature of the leaders and the chaos in the government. But it should only be limited to that, and not extend itself to unalterable social conditions.

Oh, and I think that a great emphasis should be given to the international effects of economy. After all, Russia industrialised through foreign investment, so it should be possible to ask huge loans, and have nets of credit and debt here and there creating an interesting and complicated world balance - which would, of course, affect strongly the diplomatic behavior of the AI, giving new motivations for waging or not waging war.
 
Jun 20, 2001
452
0
Visit site
I hope that the player will be able to influence industrialization somewhat, but can't outright build factories(unless in a dictatorship)
 

unmerged(11089)

Second Lieutenant
Sep 22, 2002
115
0
Visit site
Originally posted by John Silver
Gah, Russia should not have THAT many problems to industrialise, I think. I disagree with the idea that Russia's size hindered industrialisation, since most of Russia was in the west anyway, both in terms of population and technology. There were two real problems for industrialisation.

Serfdom, as you said, was a big problem, but it was solved pretty neatly; the unrest was limited and controlled, and redemption payments made the nobility happy. I think this should be a feature to be considered in the game; the possibility of emancipating the serfs, and the extent at which to do this - all of this directly affecting your stability, of course.
The second problem was the nature of the Tsars; they were all too conservatory. Even Nicholas I, despite all the "Tsar reformer" crap, was a conservatory who believed in all the values about authority and tsarism (in fact, he only emancipated the serfs when forced by the Crimean War). And Alexander III and Nicholas II were both educated by the reactionary Pobedonostsev, so they didn't get much fresh ideas. This must be added to the fact that their government was chaotic and inefficient.
But except for serfdom - which as I said, should be given the option to solve to the player - it was a problem of crappy leadership of the country, not of particular social conditions. After all, look at what Sergei Witte did at the end of the 19th Century: Russia's industry made huge leaps forwards. Without World War I, it was presumable that Russia could have become an industrial power comparable to Germany before 1940. I am convinced that this could have happened much earlier, if only someone had gotten to work on it.

So conclusions? If Russia is to be given a handicap in industrialisation, this must be limited to the nature of the leaders and the chaos in the government. But it should only be limited to that, and not extend itself to unalterable social conditions.

Oh, and I think that a great emphasis should be given to the international effects of economy. After all, Russia industrialised through foreign investment, so it should be possible to ask huge loans, and have nets of credit and debt here and there creating an interesting and complicated world balance - which would, of course, affect strongly the diplomatic behavior of the AI, giving new motivations for waging or not waging war.

Although I mostly agree with you, you have to remember that it took a true genious of the ages :rolleyes: to actually iindustrilize Russia, and thus it should be hard, not impossible, to bring Russia upto its Soviet Industrial might!
 

Zagys

Doomsday Prophet
23 Badges
Mar 1, 2000
1.128
15
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pride of Nations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
Originally posted by czaralex
Although I mostly agree with you, you have to remember that it took a true genious of the ages :rolleyes: to actually iindustrilize Russia, and thus it should be hard, not impossible, to bring Russia upto its Soviet Industrial might!
The Tsars of this era never had the same level of control over Russian society and economy that Stalin did.
 

Mordoch

Lt. General
Apr 12, 2001
1.479
0
Originally posted by John Silver

Serfdom, as you said, was a big problem, but it was solved pretty neatly; the unrest was limited and controlled, and redemption payments made the nobility happy.
This is badly misinterpreting the issues which faced Russia. The problem was that the payments which the peasants were required to make to their previous noble owners for the land they now held, meant they were tied to the local mir and were required to receive permission from the mir to leave the area. Since these payments were substancial and over a large number of years, the people of the mir were reluctant to allow anyone to leave the area. This was because they would still be required to make the same payments, but without the individidual who left the mir paying his share of the burden.

This system prevented the peasantry from being mobile, preventing them from traveling to factories to provide labor, and therefore seriously impaired industrialization in Russia which did not occur in significant degrees untill well after the end of serfdom.
 
Last edited:

peo

Lt. General
43 Badges
Mar 29, 2001
1.394
33
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Also one thing i don't remember anyone mentionine is that the guild system employed in most nations is against industrialization.
First when you abolish it can you hope of large scale industrialization. Or at least it should be more difficult to attain labour with the system in place.
 

supergamelin

Captain
5 Badges
Feb 11, 2003
421
1
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
Originally posted by Mordoch
This is badly misinterpreting the issues which faced Russia. The problem was that the payments which the peasants were required to make to their previous noble owners for the land they now held, meant they were tied to the local mir and were required to receive permission from the mir to leave the area. Since these payments were substancial and over a large number of years, the people of the mir were reluctant to allow anyone to leave the area. This was because they would still be required to make the same payments, but without the individidual who left the mir paying his share of the burden.

This system prevented the peasantry from being mobile, preventing them from traveling to factories to provide labor, and therefore seriously impaired industrialization in Russia which did not occur in significant degrees untill well after the end of serfdom.

Additionnaly, Russia lacked the spirit of initiative and entrepreneurship that was present in other nations and was a driving force in the industrial advances of other nations. Overall the Russian people had a much more passive attitude due to centuries of autocratic rule and it took a long time to change that.

Personal initiative was not a quality particularly favoured in the administration, the industry or the military. And thus the young educated classes tended to boil in frustration and turn to revolutionary activities rather than contribute in modernizing the society.

Of course things changed slowly but Russia was a mere follower. No major technical innovations came from there. A lot of the industrialization was carried by foreigners who wanted to have their share of the Russian market. But the driving forces did not come originally come from Russia itself, though once the process was initiated things started to move on in the late XIXth century.

Without the lead and impetus of other countries little would have happened in Russia.
 

unmerged(16864)

Corporal
May 8, 2003
39
0
Visit site
Mordoch, what I meant when I said that the serf problem was "solved pretty neatly" was not that all of a sudden the Russian agriculture became equal to that of other European countries, peasants were free and picking flowers, and what not. What I was trying to get through with the word "neatly" was that unrest was not greatly widespread. Sure, there were riots and protests, but nothing terribly serious. The Mirs were given the right to flog the peasants and, I think, even to send them to Siberian exile. Control was kept. It may not sound like it, but compare it to the emancipation of the slaves in North America; Nicholas I did it earlier, at a larger scale, and without a civil war. Overall, it can be said that the whole thing was solved "neatly".

And yes, redemption payments did keep the serfs bound to the mirs for decades, the debt often perduring onto the next generations, but they were wiped out by Stolypin's reforms sixty-seventy years later. So as I say, serdom was a great problem, but it could be solved, and it was solved. If the player has more initiative than the Tsars (and he certainly will), he should be allowed to solve serfdom in much less time - with, of course, all the subsequent problems in stability and such.

czaralex: Stalin a genius of the ages?... well... he might have been, but I sure hope we don't get another genius in government for the next hundred years or so. ;)
 

unmerged(15764)

Lt. General
Mar 23, 2003
1.303
1
Visit site
so what are the disadvantages of industrializing your nation? will you have to pay upkeep? will the people be unhappy? or is industrialisation a 100% goodt ting?
 

peo

Lt. General
43 Badges
Mar 29, 2001
1.394
33
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Originally posted by azid
so what are the disadvantages of industrializing your nation? will you have to pay upkeep? will the people be unhappy? or is industrialisation a 100% goodt ting?

It should couse unrest.