Industrialization and reserve cash

[unmerged(14905)]

I'm sure the question will be stupid ( o ), but it's soooo important to build factories (even the high end ones)?
I rarely got the materials to run two factories of the same type at maximum (level 1 industries), I can see the income for good outputs (say, clothes and lux ones with good princing on the market) in the budget statics, but isnt never something spectacular (5-10 of increase)... I see at times (for steel factories above all) a good auto-generated income (I dont recall the exact name now), but this not affects the national treasure at all.
OK, the factories goods are placed on the market by the POPs, they gain money from those goods, but my tariffs? 5-10 of increase on the budget? Dont worth it.
Then to make money this way I have to construct 100 high end factories... but who place in work? My personal army of clones? A trip to Kamino ( )?

And cash reserves? I read this has been fixed in 1.03b... good, that's true. But I have to set my tax to ridicolous low levels, and without taxes I can press the surrender button.
The fact is this: "POPs with 0 money" = "POPs with 1 billion"... nothing of valuable and important change. Then why make myself in trouble keeping cash reserve in good status?

I'm sure I'm missing something/all... but what?
A direct question: at the middle or the end of a your good game (not a WC, I mean) what is your daily income? And the way you used to get it?

 

[swilhelm73]

IMHO, most people industrialize too early.

Until I get lvl 3 railroads, I mostly just build enough factories to fill my needs for resources or if I have alot of unemployed clerks/craftsmen.

When factoring in the costs for input resources, upgrading POPs, and increased crime costs, early industrailization isn't, IMO, worth it...

OTOH, once you do start getting higher level railroads, the profits really become amazing...

 

[Memnon]

Industrialization is by no means easy to pull off. To be honest, it still stymies me fairly frequently. To industrialize successfully, you have to be patient and you have to play smart.

Before you begin, on day one of the game, set to buy machine parts if under 1000. If you're lucky, you'll pick a few up on the first day or so. There are about thirty or forty floating around on January 2, 1836. If your prestige is 15 or higher on the first day, then you'll get a few.

First, look at the natural resources available in your country. Build factories that use raw material you don't have to import. This means that if you're playing as Prussia, steel isn't always the best idea as you have only one domestic source of iron at the outset of the game. As Russia or Austria on the other hand, steel is more profitable because you have the domestic resources to support the industry.

But for me, the biggets cash product is always regular clothes. It's cheap and easy to produce and it's nets a heck of a lot of cash in the early game. I can usually get a daily profit of about 12 pounds from a regular clothes factory in the first few years of the game.

Second, choose your industrial locations wisely. Make sure you're building in a state that isn't too big (I usually stick with states no bigger than five or six provinces) and that you're using POPs of your national culture as Craftsmen and Clerks. The state size helps in maximizing the output from railroad investment.

Third, build the darn railroads. Build them by the state, starting with those in which you have industries. Always railroad these states first, since then the railroads will give your industries their full industrial bonus. Since the railroad bonus is given by the state, the smaller the state, the faster you can fill it with railroads, and the less investment it takes to get the full benefit.

Fourth, don't worry too muc about your POPs' cash reserves for the first ten years of the game. There's not much you can do about that if you're not playing as Russia or the UK.

And lastly, for your information:

In my current MP game, I'm Austria and my partner is France. It's 1860 and we're currently duking it out in Italy in the unification wars. At war (but not mobilized) with an army maintenance of 100% and defense spending at 75%, my daily income is about 700 pounds and daly expense is about 550. In peace time, daily income is more or less 800 and expense is approximately 450. I am the world leader only in the production of canned food, small arms, ad regular clothes, and I have completely railroaded over the country with Early Railroad. My population is about 56 million as I have siezed the entire Balkans from the Ottomans, though greece still eludes me.

I don't know how that compares to other peoples' experience, but maybe it'll give you some perspective.

Best of luck,
Memnon

 

[Darkrenown]

Memnon gives good advice, but I would set MPs to buy under 100, not 1000. Lower demand = lower price

 

[Memnon]

Memnon gives good advice, but I would set MPs to buy under 100, not 1000. Lower demand = lower price

The amount you'll get depends directly on how high you set that number under which to buy. I charted the data of a test as Austria in this thread. But it's up to you as the player, in the end. getting too many machine parts at the higher price can set you way back, especially if you're already having rouble makings ends meet, but I prefer to take the risk.

 

[Darkrenown]

I don't see getting 4 more a day is worth it when you pay £100 more for each of them.
Taking prices from your chart, buy under £100 gets you 19 at £312 each = £5,928 while buy under 1000 gets you 23 at £439 each = £10,097.

Still, if you can afford it and you're gonna use them all you might as well.

 

[unmerged(23487)]

Income 700!!!???



*faints*

 

[unmerged(14905)]

yes, thanks for the good suggestions.
Every tip is welcome...

anyway, can you confirm this?
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"POPs with 0 money" = "POPs with 1 billion"... nothing of valuable and important change.

 

[IEX Totalview]

Let me also add a bit. I'm writing an AAR where I don't industrialize, and you really get hosed late game because there is no way to increase your income outside of conquest or industrialization. If you don't industrialize, you must conquer something new to expand your income, there is no other way. Meanwhile, the income of AI nations keeps increasing as technology/industry increases, and it can get ugly late in the game.

 

[KaiserChicken]

By what I see in this thread, it seems that it's frequente to have unemployed POP's.

Is it just me who has trouble on finding workers for factories?

 

[EUnderhill]

In response to Memnon and Darkrenown, in my most recent test as Russia, setting the machine parts order at 50 got me thirty on Jan 3 and nine more the next day, but when the order was set at 42, I got all 42. I thought that I had seen this before, so I was looking. Buying at 45 was just like buying at 50, except for no second-day buying. So much for linearity. Also regarding RRs, only in the state containing the capital province does full RR level give full benefit. The average in the state does have a strong effect on the production efficiency, but any province with a land connection to the capital that is not at maximal RR level will drag down the production efficiency of any province outside of the capital state. I am also certain that the output of a factory is a function of the production efficiency of the province in which a given working POP resides. For example: S-P GC two factories on Sardinia, and two POPs each of craftsmen and clerks. Built RR in the northern half. Factory output was increased in whichever factory had the working POPs in the northern province. Smaller increase observed in both factories when employment in each was split between improved and unimproved provinces.
In keeping with the original topic, early industrialization is important, even if money-losing in the short run, to prevent rampant migration and merging of POPs. Call them placeholder factories or what you will, but I believe that they will pay long run benefits.

 

[unmerged(29803)]

I can concur that industrial profit very much depends on the current state of the world market + overall technology and railroad levels. Definitely won't make the silly early-game over-industrialization mistake again

For example, as belgium, expanding the steel factory isn't a great idea at the start; both iron and coal are too scarce & valuable at that point, not to mention lack of POPs. After railroad improvements and Clean Coal + Cheap Iron research however the expansion does become worthwhile (esp. since excess, cheap coal = potential clerk/crafstmen POPs) Or so I've learned the hard way.

So you may indeed be better off with a good RGO rather than a factory at the start of a game but I'd definitely recommend increasing your industry as you go along as well.
Keeping unemployed POPs around or producing goods that simply aren't available off the world market (e.g. weapons to fuel your war efforts) are probably the only exceptions.

 

[Darkrenown]

anyway, can you confirm this?
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Pops with no money have higer mil from not getting goods. Pops with lower income lowers you taxes (and tariffs if tariff money didn't appear by magic). Pops with no money lowers demand for all goods they would have bought thus lowering prices worldwide.

 

[unmerged(7458)]

Here's a mid-game (or perhaps "end of the beginning" ) sort of question:

* You have at least one factory of each product type, perhaps more than one for lower level products, so all factories are getting all their inputs.

* All the provinces have been upgraded to railroad level 1.

Which pays off better now, building more factories or upgrading railroad level? For small countries, I would think the better option would be to upgrade railroads, but how about great big countries like the U.S. or Russia?

Curiously,

Stilicho

 

[Memnon]

Here's a mid-game (or perhaps "end of the beginning" ) sort of question:

* You have at least one factory of each product type, perhaps more than one for lower level products, so all factories are getting all their inputs.

* All the provinces have been upgraded to railroad level 1.

Which pays off better now, building more factories or upgrading railroad level? For small countries, I would think the better option would be to upgrade railroads, but how about great big countries like the U.S. or Russia?

Curiously,

Stilicho

I think that would depend on two factors: first, can you get machine parts, and second, how bug is your country?

If you can't get machine parts (or you can't get enough of them to build more than a few factories) then I'd suggest going for the railroad. It's an investment guaranteed to pay off later.

But if you're a country that's very large, like, say, Austria or Russia, it will cost a heck of a lot to upgrade all railroads to Early, so you may want instead to focus on getting your prestige up so you can get machine parts.

 

[Quarto]

About reserve cash... pops with reserve cash will buy more goods, so if you have high tariffs, you will make tons more money if your taxes are low. Indeed, unless you produce lots of consumer goods (i.e., booze), you will find that tariffs give you incomparably more profits than taxes will - provided your pops have enough reserve cash to buy lots of stuff.

Once you begin industrialising, BTW, don't be afraid of getting into debt, even very high debt - the limit, of course, being the point where you cannot reduce the debt without significantly altering your budget. Because Victoria has such a short timespan (heh, a century is short?), time spent waiting on saving up cash is time wasted.

 

[unmerged(7458)]

I think that would depend on two factors: first, can you get machine parts, and second, how bug is your country?

If you can't get machine parts (or you can't get enough of them to build more than a few factories) then I'd suggest going for the railroad. It's an investment guaranteed to pay off later.

But if you're a country that's very large, like, say, Austria or Russia, it will cost a heck of a lot to upgrade all railroads to Early, so you may want instead to focus on getting your prestige up so you can get machine parts.

Darn, I should have added one more detail to my question.

One is producing ALL available products, including machine parts.

Railroads are already level 1.

It's a big country. Factories are distributed in many different states.

You have both cash and all required materials on hand, the decision is to build either railroad upgrades or more factories.

Which provides the better return on investment, upgrading railroads or building more factories?

Or do all the good players just cram nearly ALL the factories in the Capital's state (and perhaps one or two others), keep that area's RR upgraded to the max, and depend on POPs immigrating to the new jobs?

As my first game as the U.S., I've been trying to open one factory in each of the western states, to encourage immigration. It's working, (CA has a huge population now) but I wonder if it's wasteful.

Curiously,

Stilicho

 

[Darkrenown]

So long as you have the pops it's best to concentrate your factories so that you only have to upgrade a state or two. In your case the RR upgrade might be better since all factories will have increased output.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

Darkrenown's right, but here's another consideration that argues against concentrating your industries in one state. In a current game as Spain, I find that POP unhappiness (=militancy) is greatly increased in those states where I have only one factory, whereas in Castilla la Nueva, which has 3 factories, the POPs are all comparatively happy. Why? I think that it's because the export income derived by those factories contributes substantially to POPs' incomes, and satisfying their needs is a big factor in keeping them happy.

It just goes to show again that everything in Victoria involves trade-offs of one kind or another.

 

[Darkrenown]

Having factories in the state ahouldn't affect the pop's income, although employment might make them happier. Have you checked their goods compared to pops in other states?