Indonesian Island Problems (and solutions)

[marineFC]

TL;DR
(Add new events that create historical Indonesian nations, states which are already present in the game yet basically are unused tags, in order to solve problems with predictability in the region)

The islands of Sumatra, Borneo, and Java (especially) are absolute rubbish in this game. It's a fact nobody can deny.

The problem is that you will get the exact same result in 75% percent of all games. What will happen, is that one of the existing states in 1444 on each island, will conquer all the other nations on it's island. 80% of the time it will be Borneo controlled by Brunei (bar uncolonised) and Java by Majapahit (an ageing, collapsing, finished empire). Sumatra is a little more diverse, due to having 3 nations and a possibility of invasion from the Malayan peninsula, but the end result for that island is either one state (usually Pasai) owning every province (bar uncolonised ones) or an empire based on the mainland controlling every province.

What on earth has gone wrong? It's certainly not a lack of tags it's the fact that that never EVER exist in a game started in 1444.

Island #1: Borneo.

Aside from the two obvious ones of Brunei and Kutai, there is a third nation for Borneo. It is called 'Banjar' and you can select and play as them from 1527. It occupies the two easternmost of Borneo's uncolonised provinces. But few will really know about this tag even existing. The country was Sunni, yet the provinces will probably never be Sunni in game. The nation will never, ever appear. What is the point in having a tag if it never will appear?

The Solution to the nation of Banjar would be a simple event firing between 1500-1550 (nation formed in 1527 historically) that creates Banjar in those two provinces, and converts them to Sunni. Now the island has more flavour, and a tag is now actually used. This could be similar to how nations like Darfur, Funj and Sulu appear.

Island #2 Java

Java has big problems. In 1444, two nations exist on it. In the vast majority of games Sunda is gone without a trace before 1580 (ish), meaning Majapahit island hegemony until the game ends (colonial powers never invade Java in game. Especially not the Netherlands!). Historically Sunda lasted until far longer.

In 1600, the game has four nations existing in Java (neither of which are Majapahit or Sunda). In fact, the game has EIGHT jags of Javanese culture, all existing in Java historically, yet we will only ever see six of them in later bookmarks (although Bali has cores in 1444). These six nations are: Banten, Bali, Blambangan, Cirebon, Demak, Mataram. I seriously doubt many people here will have heard of them. Currently, that's six tags basically wasted.

Java has a religious problem as well. Today, and even by the end of the EU4 timeframe, Java is almost entirely Sunni. Starting in 1444, you will never see even a single Sunni province by the end. It will all be Hindu still, something that is clearly not right, as many Sunni kingdoms were established as early as the late 15th century. The game models Java very well in the later bookmarks, emphasising the division of the island and spread of Islam.

What Java needs is a more extreme version of my proposed Borneo events. There should be a Majapahit civil war event that could cause the fracturing of the kingdom into smaller states. There should be events for the spread of Islam in the islands. The sultanate of Demak is especially important, as it's appearance on Java in 1475 as the first Sunni state influenced religion on the island greatly. There should be an event that converts one or two provinces around the historical area of Demak to Sunni and either add cores & rebels, or make the nation independent. Similar events could be organised for all the other states in Java.

I will add the section on Sumatra soon.

Some are bound to accuse me of 'railroading', which, in EU4 terms, is forcing the world to evolve historically through events and decisions; examples include the Burgundian inheritance. What I say to this, is that having a diverse (both religiously and politically) and exciting set of islands that differ every game, is far superior a result to having islands dominated by only one power every game, and with little historical realism or diversity, even at the cost of so called 'railroading'.

I'm very open to suggestions, and will respond to criticism and potentially edit my post.

EDIT: This image is exactly what the problem is at the moment. Observer game, and Kutai is fully annexed by Brunei by 1448. Not even FOUR years into the game. I highly doubt any other country will rule any of Brunei's provinces on Borneo for the rest of the game.

 

[NeverHelm]

The collapse of Majapahit could be either a DHE like the Burgindian inheritance, or possibly a disaster. However, it might be too much development time for what is, in the grand scheme of the game, a fairly low-priority area. Still, more flavour is always better than less IMO.

 

[Alpacayak]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever taken a look at this mod? I downloaded it mostly because I planned to play a malaccan sultanate in the near future and it looked like it made the region a lot more interesting. Haven't really done so and don't even know how historical it is tbh, but maybe it addresses some of your complaints.

 

[marineFC]

The collapse of Majapahit could be either a DHE like the Burgindian inheritance, or possibly a disaster. However, it might be too much development time for what is, in the grand scheme of the game, a fairly low-priority area. Still, more flavour is always better than less IMO.

I doubt creating a few events that spawn nations would be too difficult. A lot of the code could be copied from the Sulu event. Or some events could be put into one.

A full on disaster/event chain might be a bit much, maybe a single, one time event that add cores, spawns rebels and flips province religions.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever taken a look at this mod? I downloaded it mostly because I planned to play a malaccan sultanate in the near future and it looked like it made the region a lot more interesting. Haven't really done so and don't even know how historical it is tbh, but maybe it addresses some of your comironman.

I almost always play ironman, and I too doubt some of the historical accuracy.

Thanks for the suggestions anyway!

 

[Philadelphus]

The Solution to the nation of Banjar would be a simple event firing between 1500-1550 (nation formed in 1527 historically) that creates Banjar in those two provinces, and converts them to Sunni. Now the island has more flavour, and a tag is now actually used. This could be similar to how nations like Darfur, Funj and Sulu appear.

I'm all for more of this type of event happening. That's definitely not railroading if you're talking about uncolonized provinces, and if someone's already colonized them by then they're probably a player and the development of the region has already been significantly tampered with.

 

[marineFC]

I'm all for more of this type of event happening. That's definitely not railroading if you're talking about uncolonized provinces, and if someone's already colonized them by then they're probably a player and the development of the region has already been significantly tampered with.

Agreed, I really don't understand why they don't include more of these events. They take away nothing, and add so much to regions. The tags already exist anyway, they might as well be used.

 

[neondt]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever taken a look at this mod? I downloaded it mostly because I planned to play a malaccan sultanate in the near future and it looked like it made the region a lot more interesting. Haven't really done so and don't even know how historical it is tbh, but maybe it addresses some of your complaints.

I'm the author of that mod. The AoW patch gave us a great province layout to work with, but unfortunately it hasn't been populated with nations.



On historicity: When you read on Wikipedia etc. that a nation in the region (at least in this period) emerged on a certain date, what that almost always means is that it's the date at which it became a Sultanate. i.e. the date at which the local ruler converter to Islam. It is generally not the date at which the "savage" natives embraced civilisation and founded the first urban centers in the region. Palembang, for example, was a city of major regional importance. The Palembang Sultanate founded in 1659. But prior to that it was the capital of a major empire, then a pirate stronghold, then a Majapahit vassal-state, then an independent Hindu kingdom (this kingdom become "officially" independent from Majapahit some time around the game's start date, though had probably been de facto independent for a few decades prior). It certainly should not be "uncolonised" in 1444.

I've also used tags as placeholders. e.g. I see no reason to create a "Lamuri" tag for the kingdom that preceded Aceh and occupied the same territory.

 

[marineFC]

Seems an interesting mod, I think I might give it a try.

The only concern I have is that there will be very few European holdings of land in the Archipelago with less uncolonised provinces.

 

[JoeSteel]

Give missions to Western colonial powers like the base in india one, after all they wanted that delicious economical spice.
My favorite nations to play is Malaya, and if Pdox adds in Phillipine states too with the decision to form the Phillipines that would be amazing. i think the phillipines as designed in the mod shown above should sort itself out, after all it has uncolonized areas that the Europeans would settle on and then take over the other states.
I think for many places it would be neater to see less colonizing and more conquests via missions. Maybe the ability to use colonists to convert religion and culture of conquered areas.

 

[neondt]

My favorite nations to play is Malaya, and if Pdox adds in Phillipine states too with the decision to form the Phillipines that would be amazing.

Problem with forming the Philippines is that a nation formed by natives from that region probably wouldn't take the name of a Spanish monarch . I don't think there was any native name that referred to the entirety of the islands that could be used instead.

Seems an interesting mod, I think I might give it a try.

The only concern I have is that there will be very few European holdings of land in the Archipelago with less uncolonised provinces.

Well that'd be historical. In EU terms, the region came into European hands by a mix of outright conquests and offering protectorates. For the most part the Europeans were after the trade power there, so they only needed direct ownership of a few key ports so long as they could direct trade towards them through their native vassals.

 

[marineFC]

I think that there is certainly a lack of colonial powers taking over areas via direct war and conquest, as opposed to peaceful colonising, and this is most evident in America where many native tribes are simply left alone.

The most simple solution to this part of the problem would be missions, as suggested above, for the nations which colonise. Maybe some should be specific for the Netherlands/Holland.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The importance of events is that they are dynamic.

A burgeoning Majapahit that has conquered Borneo and is stable + wealthy getting a sudden civil war/freebie land given away without conflict/suddenly switching to Sunni would be flagrantly absurd, excessively violating both history and gameplay.

Similar to the dynamic nature of the Italian wars, the game's abstraction level is too high from a gameplay standpoint to nicely model the emergence of later-date nations in a way that it's fluid/representative of historical circumstances.

Punishing arbitrarily-chosen tags at random on the basis of hindsight bias will not make the game more historical. Railroading consequences without their causes is the opposite of historical.

 

[Dutchman251]

You should also take a look at the Phillipines. They are in the same situation.

 

[marineFC]

The importance of events is that they are dynamic.

A burgeoning Majapahit that has conquered Borneo and is stable + wealthy getting a sudden civil war/freebie land given away without conflict/suddenly switching to Sunni would be flagrantly absurd, excessively violating both history and gameplay.

Similar to the dynamic nature of the Italian wars, the game's abstraction level is too high from a gameplay standpoint to nicely model the emergence of later-date nations in a way that it's fluid/representative of historical circumstances.

Punishing arbitrarily-chosen tags at random on the basis of hindsight bias will not make the game more historical. Railroading consequences without their causes is the opposite of historical.

Events have triggers, so surely it would not be difficult to add a clause along the lines of 'does not have over x development/provinces. Possibly if Majapahit has more than say, 14 provinces (which is 1444 Majapahit + Sunda ie; Java and Bali) perhaps the event will not trigger.
The game cannot even begin to replicate the circumstances leading to fragmentation of such regions, and can only model the spread of new religions into areas via conquest and conversion by the conquering state.

Majapahit fell to dynastic quarrels and the rise of Islam among local rulers. Neither of these things can possibly happen to Majapahit in game. Other nations don't appear as a result from any succession problems because they have any cores. The only solution to the problem of ever stable nations is events. Events that might in Java's case, force conversion to Islam, because it will never happen in game. Events that might, create historical nations, because they will never appear ingame.

In short, the game cannot model situations that occurred in this region in real life. It is up to events to provide diversity to this region.

You should also take a look at the Phillipines. They are in the same situation.

As in all the tags there (sulu apart) never appear? Yeah.

 

[neondt]

Majapahit fell to dynastic quarrels and the rise of Islam among local rulers. Neither of these things can possibly happen to Majapahit in game. Other nations don't appear as a result from any succession problems because they have any cores. The only solution to the problem of ever stable nations is events. Events that might in Java's case, force conversion to Islam, because it will never happen in game. Events that might, create historical nations, because they will never appear ingame.

In short, the game cannot model situations that occurred in this region in real life. It is up to events to provide diversity to this region.

Here's what I did for Java in my mod:

• Added cores for Demak, Cirebon, Banten, and Mataram in 1444 so that breakup is possible
  
• Created a disaster that MAJ begins with in 1444 that causes internal instability (which I think is justified given that the rapid decline had already begun by 1444)
  
• Added events to convert provinces to Islam beginning around the historical date for widespread conversion. There is a decision to allow Malay countries with Sunni provinces to convert if Sunni is the dominant religion. It's not entirely unlike the Protestant Reformation in Europe.
  
• Bali and Blambangan are independent in 1444

The results after 100 years are pretty varied, which I think is a good thing. Sometimes MAJ holds together and eventually converts to Islam, sometimes Sunda dominates because MAJ can't deal with pretender rebels, sometimes Islamic separatists emerge and change the landscape completely, etc.

Also, I don't agree with the suggestion that diversity should be created by having new nations spring up in uncolonised land via event. That would be to imply that nobody of consequence was living there prior to the establishment of an Islamic Sultanate, which was not the case. I agree with TMIT that some of the suggestions made so far have been heavy-handed.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The only solution to the problem of ever stable nations is events. Events that might in Java's case, force conversion to Islam, because it will never happen in game. Events that might, create historical nations, because they will never appear ingame.

No, that is not the only solution. What is quoted posits a false dichotomy. The ideal in a less-abstracted game might be to have the gameplay mechanics allow for that sort of dynamic to happen, not "because history", but due to circumstances similar to what caused them in history. Then you'd have a fluid progression of revolts and territory change over time.

But that's not how EU IV is built. Events are something of a shoehorn, problematic precisely because they mesh poorly with the game's mechanics, mechanics presumably implemented because the developers felt they're the best-available metrics given the game's overall abstraction level (some of us disagree with individual choices). Regardless of where you draw the mechanic/abstraction line, however, implementing stuff that undermines said mechanics and burrows into effective gameplay is harmful to the game. If the game is meant for having dynastic struggle and difficulty with administration, it isn't the kind of thing that at-random finds its way into the game for Majapahit but somehow never hits, say, Pate in East Africa who also has 14 or less provinces because reasons.

If the only thing in response to that is "Majapahit had problems with this in history, but not Pate", there's no viable argument for implementing it on Majapahit. Hindsight bias is not a valid criterion on which to base gameplay in a game that is fundamentally about alternative history.

 

[marineFC]

I'll just say that one reason why I singled out Majapahit, Java, and Indonesia out is that it is a region with many many tags that are unused, and the region is arguably one of the least diverse in terms of nations appearing that are based upon the isles. But primarily the unused tags thing. It is just such a waste to have such numbers of tags that will never EVER appear. There must be a way for them to appear in game. I feel that events, with the correct triggers that is, are definitely part of the solution.

 

[Rabid]

I don't really care what they do as long as this region receives some love, even though the new map is really good the low number of tags that ever exist and static gameplay isn't fun or historical

 

[Shadowstrike]

I really like neondt's setup, and would perhaps go a bit further to suggest that the rest of the Indonesian and Philippine islands (with the exception of Papua) be filled in with indigenous states, forcing colonizers to send troops to conquer them (as in India). The situation right now is really odd, with some heavily populated regions being empty (i.e. Palembang), while other nations like Ternate and Tidore sit among empty provinces.