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Cinnamon Ryce

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Oct 13, 2018
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Hi everybody! I’m not fairly active here on the forums, so I’d like to quickly introduce myself. I’m Cinnamon Ryce, or CR, and I’m the dev of an older EU4 mod focusing on Southeast Asia called ‘Suvarnabhumi: The Land of Gold.’ With the release of the new dev diary on Indochina, I’d like to first of all congratulate @neondt on achieving his dream of working on Southeast Asia, and I’d also like to thank him for encouraging me to take on EU4 modding as a result is his ancient mod known simply as the ‘Indonesian Improvement Mod;’ you could say I’m kinda a fan. Nevertheless, let’s get right into it!
indochina map.png
Well, first of all, let’s start with Laos, and also Lan Na. Admittedly, I’m surprisingly happy with Laos, although there are a few errors and missed opportunities; Luang Namtha first of all, which has been in EU4 for a while, was simply not in EU4, or rather, the time period of EU4. The town of Luang Namtha was preceded by the Tai Lue principality known as Kengcheng (Lao: Xiang Khaeng). The Lai Lue people were subordinate to Lan Na, as Lan Na was the home of Mangrai, one of the great northern Thai kings who established the first Tai Empire in Southeast Asia. The heirs of Mangrai ruled over various small principalities loyal to Lan Na, with the main ones being Kengtung (Chiang Tung), Mong Nai (Mueang Nai), and Hsipsawngpanna (Sipsongpanna); the kingdom of the Tai Lue people. I’d suggest for this area, Luang Namtha be split into two provinces; Phongsali or Muang Xay in the northeast, a poorer province belonging to Lan Xang, and Kengcheng with its capital of Muang Sing, belonging to either Kengtung or Sipsongpanna, both we shall touch on later down this thread.
Further commenting on Laos, I’d like to open up the topic of Xiankhouang. First of all, one thing that has bothered me a lot is that Xiankhouang isn’t actually a thing; from what I understand it was just a developer misspelling of Xiang Khouang, (Thai: Chiang Khwang, Vietnamese: Trấn Ninh) with this misspelling not also being limited to the province, but also the tag of ‘Muan Phuang.’ The tag in which should probably be called ‘Muang Phuan,’ (Vietnamese: Bồn Man) or the principality of the Phuan people, with the Lao ‘Muang’ being equivalent to the Thai ‘Mueang.’ Also as a footnote, Muang Phuan currently doesn’t have rulers, so I’d like to suggest that they be added: I’ll make sure to link the ruler list here. Nevertheless, I would like to also advocate a splitting of the Xiang Khouang province, with a new province of Houaphan (Thai: Huaphan, Vietnamese: Sam Châu). Historically, in the Vietnamese-Laotian War of 1479-1480, Dai Viet annexed this portion of Laos as Tran Man, orSam Châu,’ avoiding the annexation of Xiang Khouang proper, along with annexing Sikhottabong (Vietnamese: Trấn Tinh), as per a final agreement with Lan Xang, which is also why I propose the wasteland dividing Vietnam and Laos be split in half, with the southern mountain section being named the ‘Marble Mountains,’ or ‘Ngũ Hành Sơn.’ Additionally, I’d also like to propose that Vientiane be renamed too, or get a dynamic Lao province name of ‘Viangchan’ (Thai: Wiangchan), the native Lao name for Vientiane, which is in fact derived from French.
Moving to the south-most portion of Laos which would later become the Kingdom of Champasak, I’d first of all like to state that ‘Khukhanor Surin’ is some sort of weird merging of the towns of ‘Khukhan’ (Khmer: Kok Khan) and Surin (Khmer: Soren), apparently the corruption of “Khukhan OR Surin.” For the sake of simplicity, I would rename this province and its capital Khukhan, which was the only major settlement in the area around this time. Additionally, another error I spotted was the misplacement of Champasak proper, which is in the place of what is now Ubon in Thailand. In reality, Champasak was located on that tiny enclave of the Mekong River which is located on the Lao side of the modern border. I won’t blabber on, but essentially, it was annexed as a part of Thailand during WW2 after a debatable victory against French Indochina. To fix this error, I’d suggest that the Champasak province take the place of Attapeu, to create a sort of ‘frontier capital’ against Cambodia, while the current province of Champasak be replaced by the province of Ubon, with its capital in Khemarat.

As further footnotes, I’d like to first of all point out that Xekong at this time was not an important settlement, and that it should be replaced with Salavan (Thai: Salawan), a more important settlement both in the game’s time period, and during the French and Thai occupations. Secondly, there is this ongoing debate on whether the name of modern Roi Et (meaning 101) came from a corrupted form of the old number of Sip Et (11), resulting in.. All of this.. Stuff.. Apparently this is some sort of local folklore, and the name Roi Et actually comes from the name ‘Roi Et Chet Pradu,’ (101, 7 doors/gates), with the Roi Et part referring the number of subordinate villages. I am a native Thai speaker myself, so I understand the linguistic side of this, but I can’t really comment on whether this legend is actually true, which is why I will redirect your attention to the fact that the Ayutthaya-Lan Xang border should be redefined and made sleeker according to the images I’m currently displaying below.
73863A0B-0DF2-4E30-BF37-D81310009EFC.png
3F65880A-C3FC-4CCA-812C-1EEFFC709E09.jpeg
Moving down south to southern Indochina; Cambodia and what is now southern Vietnam, I’d first of all just like to say that I am incredibly impressed with what has been achieved, although there a few silly errors and missed opportunities; per the usual I will start with the errors. First and foremost, I’d like to point out that Champa’s ruler list is incomplete, and secondly, I’d like to state that in the Central Highlands, the Rhade tag (orange), and its province of the same name are misplaced. Rhade should in fact be where Koho (pink) is, so as a result I would suggest that both the tags and their provinces be switched, with Koho’s province; Tay Nguyen, also being renamed either ‘Lach’ or ‘Dalat.’ Additionally, The capital of the Rhade province could also be either ‘Ea Wer’ or ‘Buon Don’ (Thai, Lao: Ban Don).
King of Champa (with rulers)
79986D32-2F83-42DC-BA32-83FB3467D732.jpeg
D9BAD67D-A541-4A40-A25A-FCAB2CD9EBF9.jpegBC93F407-A166-49BD-B0A6-FAD2DD123AB3.gif
Before we head off to Cambodia though, I’d also like to shed a bit of light on Jarai. Essentially, Jarai, with heavy Cham roots, was considered one of the ‘civilized’ highlander nations, and to some degree had a form of government. Jarai was ruled by three powerful lords, known as the Kings of Fire, Water, and Air, with the former two ruling the south and north of the Jarai State respectively. The Kings of Fire ruled from Cheo Reo (Now Ayun Pa), within the boundaries of the current Tay Nguyen province. For this reason I suggest that the Jarai tag be ruled by the Kings of Water (In addition to the fact that Jarai apparently means waterfall), while the Rhade tag represent the domain of the Kings of Fire. As a nice cosmetic change, I also suggest that the Jarai tag be colored blue to represent the King of Water, while the Rhade tag remain orange to represent the King of Fire.
Onwards to Cambodia, the only actual issue I can spot is the misspelling of Raung Damrey as ‘Raung Dapey.’ In terms of other province names, the name ‘Kampong Pous Thom’ is quite lengthy, which is why for simplicity, I’m suggesting its actual province name be just Kampong Thom, the modern shortened name, similar to Nakhon Ratchasima being nicknamed ‘Khorat.’ Aside from that, a couple of my suggestions include renaming Oudong to Longvek, as Longvek in this time period was much more important, and served as the capital of Cambodia less than a century after 1444, with Oudong only being founded around 2 centuries after the game’s start date. In a somewhat similar fashion, I’d also like to suggest that the provinces of Stung Treng and Kratie be renamed to Satung Teng and Kracheh respectively, due to the fact that the name Satung Treng was more relevant at the time, and changed due to an advancement in the Khmer language, and Kratié being a French exonym given to the town of Kracheh.
CECAECE1-E70C-44FA-A189-B9C37D4BB6FB.png
In addition to this, in terms of provinces, I’m suggesting that a new province be added to Cambodia; with that being Mort Chrouk or Peam in Cochinchina. Historically, Peam, known by the Vietnamese as Hà Tiên, was an important trade city, serving as the capital of the semi-independent Principality of Hà Tiên, also known as Ponthiamas or Cochinchina to Europeans, which I feel is enough to justify an extra province in the wealthy Mekong Delta, which is the current setup, only received one new province.

And finally, wrapping up things in Cambodia, I’d like to finally suggest that Khmer be renamed to Cambodia, based on the fact that the Khmer Empire collapsed more than a decade before the game’s start date. Considering that the Mongol Empire is a separate tag from Mongolia and is formable, in my opinion warrants the addition of the Khmer Empire as a separate formable tag, bringing more diversity, gameplay, and formable nations to mainland Southeast Asia.
D9705FCF-26A2-44BE-96A7-A92F84C0941D.jpeg
5853A9E1-88E3-4855-8672-63270D5E880D.png
Now as we arrive to the single-handedly most important region of Southeast Asia; my motherland of Thailand, I’d like to once again reiterate that the Ayutthaya-Lan Xang border is in need of redrawing; specifically, Si Thep should have its right side redistributed among the Lan Xang provinces of Chaiyaphum, Roi Et and Khukhan, with Phetchabun being extended into Chaiyaphum, and Khorat being redrawn; IE a more natural border with Si Thep, and Rayong feeding into Khorat. Additionally, before we get into major changes, I’d also like to state that ‘Nakhon Thung Yai’ is probably meant to represent the town of Mueang Thung Yai, now modern Trat. I don’t even know how someone completely misnamed this province, but I’ll leave my suggestion here at simply renaming Nakhon Thung Yai to just Thung Yai, with its capital at Mueang Thung Yai.

First of all, you can’t really see much from the screenshots (This was written prior to the dev diary on maritime Southeast Asia), but I’d like to nevertheless suggest a mini ‘overhaul’ of Ligor (Or Nakhon Si Thammarat) which as of now stands as a Malay-Sunni tag with fictional rulers. From what I’ve gathered, Ligor was somewhat like this. Ligor was historically preceded by the Kingdom of Tambralinga, a Malay-Mahayana kingdom in what constitutes basically the same amount of territory. With the rise of the Sukhothai Kingdom however, it was reduced to a vassal of Sukhothai, where Thai colonists during or after the reign of King Ramkhamhaeng flocked from, turning Tambralinga into Nakhon Si Thammarat. For this reason, I suggest that Ligor become a Thai-Theravada tag, with its main provinces; Nakhon Si Thammarat and Thalang, also becoming Thai-Theravada provinces. As an additional bonus, I will also show the poorly made list of the rulers of Ligor that I’ve constructed using various sources. P.S I'm writing this after seeing the latest dev diary on maritime Southeast Asia, and I'd recommend splitting Trang (Malay: Terang) and Songkhla (Malay: Singora) off of Thalang and Si Thammarat respectively. Songkhla at this time had been conquered by Ligor from the Chermin Empire since 1295.
-Sri Dharmaraja Dynasty-
Thammasokarat (AKA Dharmasokaraja)
1373-1414

Phanomwan (AKA Brah Bnamvan, Phnom Van, etc)
1414-1430

Bana (AKA Bana Sri Dharmasokaraja)
1430-1470

General
Awi Chakri
1440s-1450s

Dewa Susa
1470-1520

Si Rat (AKA Sri Raja, *died in 1560 during Chakkraphat's reign* )
(1520-1560)

Sodhanarat (AKA Sodhanaraja)
(1560-1590)

Annexed by Ayutthaya
(1590-1767.4.1)

Nai U
(1590-?)

-Yamada Clan-
Nagamasa
(1617-1630)

-Ban Takkien Dynasty-
Palat Nu
(1767.4.1-1769)

Annexed by Thonburi
(1769-)
Also I should note two extra things concerning Ligor; firstly, its capital of Nakhon Si Thammarat has a name so long that it literally gets cut off to 'Nakhon Si Thammara'. To fix this issue, I would simply rename the province to Si Thammarat, along with the dynamic Khmer and Malay province names for it. The alternative to this would be renaming the province to Nakhon, although it makes little sense, as Nakhon in Thai simply means ‘city.’ The other concern I have is the status of Chaiya province (Surat Thani). As noted from the Wikipedia article on Surat Thani province;
[Nakhon Si Thammarat] was divided into the cities (mueang) of Chaiya, Thatong (now Kanchanadit), and Khirirat Nikhom. Chaiya was administered directly from the Thai capital, while Thatong and Khirirat were controlled by the Nakhon Si Thammarat Kingdom.”
As a result, the Chaiya province should be redrawn to represent the cities of Kanachanadit and Khirirat Nikhom under the rule of Ligor, while having a straighter southern border, and perhaps absorbing the northern section of the Thalang province, also being placed under the ownership of Ayutthaya, representing the areas administered directly from Ayutthaya.
My main criticism in Siam however is with the current setup of Sukhothai. A simplified backstory to Sukhothai; essentially, the Kingdom of Sukhothai as one of the first independent Tai nations once had a massive empire, but was overshadowed by the influence of Ayutthaya, later being reduced to its vassal state. The Kingdom of Sukhothai ended when its last king; Thammaracha IV of the Phra Ruang dynasty died, leaving the king of Ayutthaya to appoint his son; the half Phra Ruang Ramesuan, or Borommatrailokkanat, as viceroy of Phitsanulok, which was the capital of the Sukhothai Kingdom.

Prior to this, in 1419, clashes occurred over the succession of Thammaracha III, with his brother, Ramaracha (Ramarachathirat or Phraya Ram) battling the future Thammaracha IV to be king of Sukhothai. The actual succession was mediated by King Intharacha of Ayutthaya, who appointed Thammaracha IV as king, and Ramaracha as his successor in a compromise between the two royals. This dialogue was done in Phra Bang, suggesting that it to some degree was under Ayutthayan influence or rule.

With the death of Thammaracha IV, Ramaracha ruled the Phra Ruang clan as a vassal of Ayutthaya, serving under the title of Phraya Song Khwae. The principality, now reduced to what I assume to be the Sukhothai province in-game, ruled from the city of Si Satchanalai, not so far away from the ancient capital of Sukhothai, which by this time had been reduced to ruins as a result of disrepair.

Fast forward a few years to the late 1440s or early 1450s; Ramaracha dies, and is succeeded by Thammaracha IV’s rebellious son, Yuthit Thian (AKA Yuthitthira). A personal friend of the current Ayutthayan king; Ramesuan, Yuthit Thian felt betrayed by various broken promises from their childhood; namely that Ramesuan would appoint Yuthit Thian as the viceroy of Phitsanulok, a title now inherited by the Uparaja of Ayutthaya, and so he plotted his rebellion against Ramesuan. A relative of King Tilokkarat of Lan Na, Yuthit Thian pledged himself to Lan Na, sparking war between Ayutthaya and Lan Na in 1451. These series of wars, known together as the Ayutthaya-Lan Na War, lasted until 1474, when Ayutthaya captured Si Satchanalai, ending the war and leaving Yuthit Thian to flee to Lan Na, where he would later die.

Further down the line, Sukhothai was briefly restored in 1564 by the Burmese in Phitsanulok, who installed a local noble known as Maha Thammaracha as a vassal ruler. With a successful Burmese invasion of Ayutthaya, Maha Thammaracha was throned as Sanphet I of Ayutthaya in 1569, ending the vassalage of Burma over Sukhothai, and the start of the Sukhothai dynasty in Ayutthaya.

Even further down the line, in 1767, following the fall and sack of Ayutthaya, Siam fell into civil war, with various warlords declaring their independence; namely Ligor, under Palat Nu (King Musika), Phimai, under Thepphiphit; the son of former King Borommakot, Fang, under Ruen Phakhunthera; a leader of a congregation of warmongering battle monks in the area, as well as Phitsanulok, under Rueang; self proclaimed ruler of Sukhothai. Within a year, Rueang proclaimed himself king, only to die within 7 days or 6 months later, apparently on the 11th month of that year, being succeeded by his younger brother Inthrakon. Under Inthrakon, Phitsanulok was invaded and captured by Ruen, the battle monk mentioned earlier, and his rule lasted until the Thonburi Kingdom recaptured the city in 1770, thus officially ending the autonomy of Sukhothai, as well as this 1,000+ word section about Thai history alone.
-Phra Ruang Dynasty-
Maha Thammaracha IV
1419-1438

Ramaracha (AKA Phraya Chaliang, Phraya Ram)
1438-1450
[ DoB = 1390-1400 ]

Yuthit Thian (AKA Yuthitthira, Yuthit Thira)
1450-1474
[ DoB = 1430, DoD = 1485 ]

*Vassal of Lan Na*
(1451-1474)

Annexed by Ayutthaya
(1474-1564.1.2)

-Sukhothai Dynasty-
Maha Thammaracha V (AKA Phirenthorathep, Sanphet I of Ayutthaya )
(1564.1.2-1569.9.29)

*Vassal of Burma*
(1564.1.2-1569.9.29)

Annexed by Ayutthaya
(1569.9.29-1767.4.1)

-Rotchanakun Dynasty-
Rueang
(1767.4.1-1768.11.1)

Inthrakon
(1768.11.1-1769)

-Phakunthera 'Clan'-
Ruen
(1769-1770)

Annexed by Thonburi
(1770-)
Although it has been stated that the Burmese map is out of range in this update due to it already being overhauled in Dharma, I’d like to make several arguments for re-overhauling the area; specifically the Shan states, which I feel are misrepresented. Do note that when in this case, the Shan states refers to all Shan controlled areas in 1444; modern Myanmar’s Shan, Kayah, Kachin, Sagaing, and Chin States, with the addition of border areas in Yunnan.
burma map.png
Going from south to north, we’ll start with the southern Shan states; areas traditionally under the sphere of influence of Lan Na. As mentioned before, these tributary states of Lan Na included Mong Nai (Thai: Mueang Nai), Kengtung (Thai: Chiang Tung), and Sipsongpanna (Chinese: Xishuangbanna). Going by this order, Mong Nai as of now is in the game (although its borders could be shifted around), Kengtung is represented as a part of Hsenwi, with Hsenwi’s rulers being the Saophas of Kengtung, and Sipsongpanna is currently a part of Mong Mao, which is a strange choice. These three principalities were all independent in 1444, up until the unification of the Shan states. Among the sources I’ll show below, you’ll notice a couple of sources relating to Sipsongpanna, with this video having a full ruler list present, and the Kengtung rulers from Hsenwi can just be transferred over to the new Kengtung tag. Although a few sources mention Lan Na as having dominance over these states, the actual extent of this dominance is ambiguous, and I would think it better to represent all these states as fully independent, with the exception of Sipsongpanna, which should be a tributary state of Ming. Despite being a Chinese tributary though, Sipsongpanna still joined the Shan confederation, later being annexed by Burma, and not officially becoming a part of China until the late 1800s.
-Hsenwi Dynasty-
Sao Hkam Hpa
(1369-1405)

Hkam Hpak Hpa
(1405-1407.6.1)

Hkam Hkai Hpa
(1407.6.1-1426)

Hkam Hawt Hpa (Hkam Yawt Hpa)
(1426-1444)

Hkam Wat Hpa
(1444-1480)

Sao Hkam Wat
(1480-1495)

Sao Hep Hpa
(1480-1558)

Another thing that is ambiguous is the status of Mong Nai; little information exists on the state, although in some sources documenting Lan Na, Mong Nai is mentioned as being under some form of Lanna influence, with the state apparently being subjugated in 1462-1463. With this reason, I also justify giving the province of Mawkmai to Mong Nai, granting Lan Na direct access to Mong Nai, with the province of Mong Kung being given to Hsenwi.

Behind Mong Mao, Hsenwi by far was the largest Shan state, dominating much of northeast Burma, and being composed of various vassal states. The current setup for Hsenwi isn’t pretty; the massive province of Hsenwi, historically wealthy enough to be carved into two separate states, directly connects to Kengtung, a province owned by Hsenwi, with its rulers also being those of Kengtung’s. From the setup I am suggesting, you might notice a few new tags; the new additions here are the states of Yawnghwe and Mong Mit, each with their own decently recorded ruler lists. The latter; Mong Mit, paid tribute to Hsenwi, through the form of rubies, which even today the area is somewhat famous for. As for the new provinces; I propose a splitting of Hsenwi, adding the new province of Mong Yai, also known as South Hsenwi, an obvious choice to represent the division of Hsenwi which occurred later on. Outside of this change, new provinces in the area include Mong Ting (Burmese: Maingting Chinese: Mengding), a smaller Shan state part of the larger Koshanpye, drawn into order to split the ridiculous Dehong province, as well as Mong Mit (Burmese: Momeik, Chinese: Mengmi) and Wanmaw (Burmese: Bhamo, Chinese: Manmo), under the ownership of Mong Mit. Historically Wanmaw was a part of the realm of the Saopha of Mong Mit, with its own independent state only being founded in 1470 by royals from Mong Mit.
-Onbaung Dynasty-
Sao Kem Hpa (Tho Kyaung Bwa)
(1401-1426)

Sao Hsan Hpa (Hsan Pa, Sao Loi Hsan Hpa, Le Than Bwa)
(1426-1459)

Sao Hkan Hpa (Tho Hkan Bwa, Hso Haw Hpa?)
(1459-1487)

Hso Sum Hpa
(1487-1519)
-Yawnghwe Dynasty-
Hsi Hseng Hpa
(1359-1434)

Hso Hseng Hpa
(1434-1477)

Hso Hung Hpa
(1477-1518)
-Mong Mit Dynasty-
Sao Wai Hpa (Si Wai Fa)
(1400s-1450)

Nang Han Lung (Queen regent)
(1450-1458)

Sao Peng Hpa (Si Ping)
(1458-1471)
[DoB = 1440]

Hso Pek Hpa
(1471-)
Moving on to the final area; northern Shan AKA modern Kachin State, I’d first of all like to justify the complete changing of the setup by saying that historically, prior to 1449, Mong Yang and Mong Kawng were not independent states, technically being a part of the larger Shan state of Mong Mao, which had once dominated Indochina and Assam under the reign of Hso Kip Hpa. In 1444, after numerous wars against Ming, the state of Mong Mao is fragile, prone to collapse. The southern states have since seceded along with the Ahom in Assam, who have slowly been distancing themselves from Mong Mao. Additionally, the capital, the town of Mong Mao (Burmese: Maingmaw, Chinese: Mengmao), is now a frontier town directly bordered by China.

The previous Saopha; Sao Ngan Hpa (Chinese: Si Renfa), at the start of 1444, fled to Mong Kawng as a wanted war criminal and bandit, trying to avoid the Chinese who wished to put him on trial, but was ultimately captured by the Burmese in Ava, who would be indirectly involved in his death after a freak accident. The Burmese have since installed their own shaky viceroyalties in Mong Yang and Mong Kawng, but these claims conflict with the overlapping claims of China and Mong Mao, with Mong Mao’s control over these areas still being nominally valid, and the local rulers still being loyal to the Mong Mao dynasty. Since Sao Ngan Hpa’s death, his son Sao Hsi Hpa rules from Mong Kawng, attempting to avoid an inevitable conflict with China, while their home state of Mong Mao is in an interregnum, with the only other available relative of Sao Ngan Hpa; Sao Hkam Hpa, later serving as Saopha of Mong Mao, only to have his state invaded by Ming once more in 1449, resulting in the relocation of the royal family of Mong Mao to Mong Yang thereafter. To accommodate for this historical Chinese front against Burma, the wasteland separating Yunnan from Mong Yang and Mong Kawng should be opened up, with Burma's connection with Tibet instead being cut off, and preventing the blobbing of Mong Kawng into Tibet, and vice-versa. In addition, various provinces in the northern Shan states have been reshuffled, fixing the issue of numerous provincial capitals being in the wrong location, and also creating a prettier setup for the area.

With the disestablishment of Mong Mao, and the de-facto establishment of Mong Yang, both Mong Yang and Mong Kawng continued to have a tight relationship under a notion that the Mong Mao state still existed. These two states in foreign sources are often confused with each other, creating an otherwise ambiguous narrative concerning that of both states, with Mong Kawng's legitimate independence itself being questionable past 1449, with sources suggesting that Mong Kawng was only (re)established during the reign of Sao Ka Hpa, who abdicated after a war with Ming, leaving the rule of Mong Yang up to the mysterious Sao Pim Hpa (Possibly being Supimphaa of the Ahom or Sawlon the Elder) while he himself established himself as Saopha of Mong Kawng. Under the reign of Sao Hom Hpa (known in Manipur records as Khe Khomba), Mong Yang (known to Manipur as Pong) at this time possibly in union with Mong Kawng, helped Manipur to invade the Kabaw Valley, splitting the region between the two states, and for this reason I suggest that the province of Thaungdut (Shan: Hsawnghsup) be given to Mong Mao and Yang; justified by the historical rule over this area that Mong Mao and Yang maintained. Decades after this, Mong Yang and Mong Kawng faced various invasions from Ming, an occupation from 1479-1483, as well as another occupation in 1495, resulting in the abdication of the before-mentioned Mong Yang Saopha Sao Ka Hpa, and his relocation to Mong Kawng. The line of succession in the late 1400s is unclear for Mong Yang, but what I am showing is what I’ve constructed, using multiple overlapping sources to create plausible ruler lists. As an additional note, Mong Yang Saopha Sao Pim Hpa who also was mentioned before, and his correlation to the Ahom king Supimphaa do somewhat overlap, with the reign of both rulers crossing over from 1495-1497, which suggests some sort of personal union, with these suspiciously similar rulers reigning at the some time for a period of two years over both states.
Mong Mao Dynasty:

-Mong Mao-

Sao Ngan Hpa (Si Renfa)
(1413-1444)

Interregnum
(1444-1448)

Sao Hkam Hpa (Sao Lam Kon Hkam Hpa)
(1448-1449)

-Mong Yang-
Sao Hkam Hpa
(1449-1461)

Sao Hom Hpa (Sao Horn Hpa, Thohanbwa, Si Hongfa, Khek Khomba)
(1461-1489)

Sao Ka Hpa (Sao Ka Pha, Sao Ha Hpa)
(1489-1495)

Sao Pim Hpa (Sawlon the Elder, Sao Pem Hpa, Supimphaa of Assam?)
(1495-1516)

Sao Long Hpa (Sawlon, Si Lun)
(1516-1533.1.1)
[DoB = 1486.4.2]

-Mong Kawng-
Sao Hsi Hpa (Si Jifa)
(1444-1449)

Sao Pu Hpa (Si Bufa, Sao Pu Pha)
(1449-????)

*Ambigious; children of Lady Mong Mao IE Sao Ngan Hpa's Wife*
(One of these became "Saopha of Hkamti")


Sao Put
(????-????)
[DoB = 1444/1445]

Sao Hung (Eldest)
(????-????)
[DoB = 1435]

Sao Hup
(????-????)
[DoB = 1442]

*Official establishment of Mong Kawng in records*

Sao Ka Hpa
(1495-1518)

*To the Shan Confederation thereafter*
The Indianized States of Southeast Asia
Asia, Australia-Oceania / Asien, Australien-Ozeanien, Part 2
COUNTRIES & TERRITORIES from 1900 to 2020 (Contains a bunch of cool flags for potential use)
Historical Atlas of South-East Asia (Thank you so much to ‘Mari’ from the Beyond Typus Discord server for providing most images from the atlas)
Suggestions for Southeast Asia by Tudhaliya
1A9BA1B3-F539-4675-B1EF-432EDC6B95C2.png
D7D33FA8-6524-4F2C-9B5E-CA5F504EFE63.jpeg
Assuming that you’ve read everything here; congratulations — You made it! If you have any suggestions for this thread, or any other query, feel free to leave a comment or PM me. I’m significantly more active on Discord. Not to self promote or anything but my Discord is Cinnamon Ryce#2310 so please feel free to contact me there.

As an added bonus, I’d also like to thank @gigau for helping me with some issues I was having when writing the thread; I wouldn’t have gotten here without his help.

Nevertheless, let’s finally conclude this thread for mainland Southeast Asia. My suggestions for maritime Southeast Asia (which definitely won’t be as long) are currently in the works, so stay tuned!
 
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Mingmung

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Fantastic thread. Let's hope it gets fixed. The map has been lacking precision for years now.
 
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Cinnamon Ryce

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Great post. However isn't Trang in 1444 is still owned by Pattani?
I’m guessing you mean Songkhla, the place north of Pattani? I’m not going to blabber on about this, but essentially prior to the 1440s, Pattani had been ruled as a part of the Empire of Langkasuka, also known as Chermin, and basically as part of a bunch of expansionist policies of Sukhothai, Songkhla was invaded and annexed by Sukhothai’s vassal, Ligor, in 1295.

If you actually mean Trang, which is north of Kedah, I’m honestly not too sure who it belonged to at this time — Different sources say different things about who owned Trang, be it Ligor or Kedah, so I guess it depends on how you interpret the information, but thanks for the question!

Fantastic thread. Let's hope it gets fixed. The map has been lacking precision for years now.
Thanks! And yeah, absolutely. I’m honestly hoping ahem.. @neondt reads this thread, because there are a bunch of errors and bugs which at the least need tweaking. That and also fictional rulers are a bit immersion breaking. :rolleyes: