Individualism: Is there more to it?

[Yenzen]

Disclaimer: No, we're not discussing what it represents compared to collectivism.

Right now Individualism gives 10% energy credits and +5% ethics divergence pr level. This stands compared to bonuses such as spiritualism and materialism which give pure bonuses or pacifism and militarism which give very wide bonuses.

Yet:

- You don't need individualism to play democracies, you just can't be collectivist.
- The Thrifty trait seems to accomplish the same, without the increased divergence.

It may just be be, but ethics divergence seems to be a major thing, so major that two governments are all about trying to cancel it out, and to such a degree that if I had a policy that was +10% energy credits, +5% ethics divergence... I'd probably be as hesitant as to hit a +1% unrest for +10% tax income in EU4!

Playing a democracy, it seems much wiser to use the extra ethics points on anything else!

So what I'm wondering is:

Is there some extra advantage that's not apparent? Such as lower unhappiness from bordering those with conflicting ethoses?

 

[Plan B]

I'm guessing it'll also be relevant in certain event decisions, as well as possibly unlocking or affecting policies and edicts; it might turn out that it gives access to some really good options

 

[macd21]

I'm wondering if ethics divergence can be beneficial - say if you add a new race to your empire, will +5% divergence increase the rate at which their ethos will change towards yours?

Basically either can be good or bad, depending on your play style and strategy.

 

[hsuzy1987]

I'm wondering if ethics divergence can be beneficial - say if you add a new race to your empire, will +5% divergence increase the rate at which their ethos will change towards yours?

Basically either can be good or bad, depending on your play style and strategy.

Yes it does work that way. If you stack ethics divergence below 0%, it makes pops ethos drift TOWARDS your empire's. It was stated in one of the streams (previous one I think).

 

[Haldan]

Yes it does work that way. If you stack ethics divergence below 0%, it makes pops ethos drift TOWARDS your empire's. It was stated in one of the streams (previous one I think).

Yup.

 

[Madzai]

I'm guessing it'll also be relevant in certain event decisions, as well as possibly unlocking or affecting policies and edicts; it might turn out that it gives access to some really good options

Well, it would mean that "Individualistic" set of edicts and events is "better" than "collectivist" one (or that "collectivist" have more negative events) but it's again the principle "the is no good\bad ethics just different ones". So i'm too kind of curious about Individualism is going to offer.

 

[hsuzy1987]

Well, it would mean that "Individualistic" set of edicts and events is "better" than "collectivist" one

It seems to me that if you have this approach then individualism is a bit of a crapshoot. It's terribad or extremely positive events are essentially random, and have to proc before you see any benefit/problem to your empire. Contrast this to a flat modifier that is constantly in effect.

Actually, come to think of it, that is exactly what individualism is. You can't predict whether the next kid born and raised in your empire is going to cure space-cancer or be the reincarnation of Hitler.

 

[Yenzen]

I'm wondering if ethics divergence can be beneficial - say if you add a new race to your empire, will +5% divergence increase the rate at which their ethos will change towards yours?

Basically either can be good or bad, depending on your play style and strategy.

Your species ethoses don't matter, aliens will only diverge more if *they* are individualist.

 

[Oscot]

It may just be be, but ethics divergence seems to be a major thing, so major that two governments are all about trying to cancel it out

I disagreed with this the last time we had an ethos divergence thread, and I disagree with it now. Everything we've seen so far shows ethos divergence to be a trivial matter - it's not hard to stop, and even if you don't stop it, the divergent pops are easily manageable with even a half-competent sector / planetary governor.

Ethos divergence/convergence is a dump stat to snare the credulous, like the planet cap in direct democracy. Don't be fooled. Individualism is fine.

 

[Knotz]

I don't necessarily forward the idea that these things need to be neatly and symmetrically stacked just for the sake of it cuz then dumb things happen (coughdirectdemocracycough) but it'd be nice if some of the the ethi (?) had some more invisible benefits, cuz currently individualism and poooosibly pacifism seem to come with more drawbacks than gains. Especially compared to those which just add and don't give any penalties at all.

Mind you, if they don't I'm still picking fanatic individualist for my first playthrough. Flavor/storytelling > min/maxing.

 

[Yenzen]

I disagreed with this the last time we had an ethos divergence thread, and I disagree with it now. Everything we've seen so far shows ethos divergence to be a trivial matter - it's not hard to stop, and even if you don't stop it, the divergent pops are easily manageable with even a half-competent sector / planetary governor.

Ethos divergence/convergence is a dump stat to snare the credulous, like the planet cap in direct democracy. Don't be fooled. Individualism is fine.

Yet, -10% of theocratic republic is considered equal to universal 10% happiness of moral democracy or an extra skill point and cheaper leaders of indirect democracy.

 

[Oscot]

Yet, -10% of theocratic republic is considered equal to universal 10% happiness of moral democracy or an extra skill point and cheaper leaders of indirect democracy.

Considered equal by whom?
You?
Devs who haven't finished balancing the game yet?
Me?
It's not the last one, I'll tell you that.

 

[Yenzen]

Considered equal by whom?
You?
Devs who haven't finished balancing the game yet?
Me?
It's not the last one, I'll tell you that.

The devs.

 

[macd21]

Thinking about it more, I think +10% energy may simply be that good.

 

[Sapidianus]

I saw in Angry Joe's short preview video that individualists have an edict to give a huge energy output bonus to the planet.

 

[Vinipac]

I saw in Angry Joe's short preview video that individualists have an edict to give a huge energy output bonus to the planet.

I remember it too. He was fanatically individualist and could enact "Privatizations Efforts" in his capital for 200 influence, giving 50% more energy in that world for 10 years.

I suspect coolectivists get something like it, but with minerals instead of energy.

 

[Sapidianus]

I disagreed with this the last time we had an ethos divergence thread, and I disagree with it now. Everything we've seen so far shows ethos divergence to be a trivial matter - it's not hard to stop, and even if you don't stop it, the divergent pops are easily manageable with even a half-competent sector / planetary governor.

Ethos divergence/convergence is a dump stat to snare the credulous, like the planet cap in direct democracy. Don't be fooled. Individualism is fine.

Are you a beta-tester? Because in Wiz stream even a directly controlled planet that wasnt too far away from the homeworld had many pops losing their initial ethos after a decade or so without any extra ethics divergence.

 

[Helsync]

I think governments are what you choose to dictate your playstyle, ethics divergence will obviously be important to races that do things that might be considered extreme such as full orbital bombardment or slavery. Those that don't use such extreme measures are less likely to suffer factional splits and so divergence is less of a problem.

Basically, so long as you don't do anything too extreme and give your populace their freedom there shouldn't be any negative drawbacks for individualist

 

[cedi]

Maybe individualist are more likely to modify themselves, making for happier and more productive pops on low habitability worlds.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

You go try to assimilate my fanatical individualist non-conformists. An unruly population is a defence mechanism. Conformists get assimilated like its their favourite past-time.
Individualism also give more varying ethoses which also means you have more flexibilty in what people you have and on which squares.