What SHOULD happen isn't always what happens. People do screw up, but still losing to AI Vijay is inconceivable once you have experience in SP. You can even check what they have in the ledger. Everyone makes mistakes, but even a westernized Vijay is a very easy fight once you're used to the game.
Indian nations westernising by 1600
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What SHOULD happen isn't always what happens. People do screw up, but still losing to AI Vijay is inconceivable once you have experience in SP. You can even check what they have in the ledger. Everyone makes mistakes, but even a westernized Vijay is a very easy fight once you're used to the game.
It wasn't even westernised. They just had more troops in India than he did - he just underestimated their strenght. Same happened to me a few times in early CoP when fighting the natives. Technology is irrelevant when your enemy's 1) has more troops in the region and 2) can bring in support faster than you.
Honestly, I'm kinda miffed that people get so steamed about countries getting the little tricorne icon. I like to see countries doing better than they did historically, or at least differently. Besides, it's not like having the symbol means they've actually caught up yet.
I have a question regarding westernization as an Indian country. Will vassals be removed when I am fully westernized, because of the difference in technology cost which are larger than 50% than?
As long as they're vassals before you westernize, they'll stay as full vassals.
Of course, if they ever get released afterwards, you can only make them a protectorate.
You are aware that in AoW all technological groups have troops of exactly the same quality, just 'peaking at different periods', according to Wiz and patch notes?
Just to note, the AI doesn't always make it's African colonies into TC straight away. In my Zazzau game, France put a colony in East Africa, and yet waited about 2 years before flipping it to a TC, thereby allowing me to westernise off of it.
Exactly. I mean, look at this map from 1819:
Looks pretty good to me, far better then tech 10 natives in 1750s.
Yep, and Indian's peak is early game. From MIL 15-17 and 19 onwards, western infantry have more pips. Also, starting at MIL 18, western cavalry are consistently better. So once you're at the midgame or so, you have qualitatively superior units as western and you'll generally get there sooner.
Why is military westernisation not allowed? Even in earlier versions it happened only after the rest of the process was completed. In reality military westernisation was much more common, whilst the more general 'cultural westernisation' was rare and aside from Russia it only happened outside the time period.
Personally I think they should scrap all non-western technology penalties and just have the rise of Europe dictated by things like base tax, colonisation, monarch points etc. Keep non-western units inferior to western ones, but allow them to westernise to remove that penalty.
Personally I think they should scrap all non-western technology penalties and just have the rise of Europe dictated by things like base tax, colonisation, monarch points etc. Keep non-western units inferior to western ones, but allow them to westernise to remove that penalty.
But they are either dead or non treat by the time they reach 18 military tech.
have you even looked at unit pips? western units are indisputably better at tech 26+, or late game if you will, being 1 pip better than eastern and 2 pips better than everyone else. even mid game (tech 15-25 ish), western units are either better or at least on par with everyone else. even if they arent, western nations are usually ahead in mil tech, so they can make up for the difference very easily with better mil tech or ideas.
i really hope u have looked at unit pips before commenting because otherwise you don't understand the importance of tech groups and how much stronger western units are compared to rotw units in mid and late game.
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But early game western units are weak compared to what most other tech groups get and only average for most of the game, it is only late game they are something special.
late game is usually when it matters, unless you are fighting hordes or ottomans in eastern europe. again, europe is not in contact with rotw until at least late 1500s or even 1600s in most cases, when western tech units break even and eventually surpass rotw. not to mention western europeans have a lot more points to spare for getting ahead in mil tech and ideas because they don't have the tech penalties the rotw have.
Western units are competitive almost immediately due to tech cost and every teach until 8 giving tactics except 5, which gives a new unit. 1 level in tactics > the small pip advantages per tech group.
If there's one problem I have with this map, it's that it's the reverse of history - Historically, China, Japan were the hardest to defeat and rule, hence why they were never colonized. While they had bad military tech compared with Europe at this point, their large populations, large wealth, powerful institutions and factions, strong national and cultural sentiments meant that European rule would have been extremely difficult, and prone with rebellion, and not something the Europeans actually attempted. It took 8 countries to subdue the Boxer revolution, which wasn't even fully supported by the official Chinese army, and overall it was a very bloody affair that the Europeans couldn't hold ground, and just burned palaces, much like the British in 1812.
With it's long history of education, system of schooling and exams, and culture of book and learning, you would think China would be the first to westernize. (and in reality, no one really westernized, besides Japan). Kongo tribes were not in a strong position to westernize, nor the Indian tribes that tried to model itself on the USA - getting a bunch of guns doesn't equal westernization. In many ways, the Indian Confederations still had hundreds of years of culture still to catch up on - a merchant class, banking, various trade skills, forging, metalworking, writing system, books, military ranks, police, fire fighting, tax assessment, road system, forts - none of this existed, and this is tech that any civilized area had for two thousand years. Getting a bunch of horses and guns from the Europeans and declaring themselves "modern" before quickly being wiped out by the US military is not really all that amazing, but somehow we'd like to think of them as on the cusp of modernity, tech level 25, only a few techs behind Europe and clearly well ahead of China/Japan.
Westernization seems to put all of the world at the level of Europeans with the press of a button, forgetting that uncivilized areas lacked the institutions and cultural habits that civilized areas take for granted (like schools!), and getting a bunch of guns won't make those institutions magically appear.
Well, while it does take place in a period of European/American technological superiority, they do essentially do that outright in Victoria, with almost all non-European/Americans being called "Primative Nations."
Ideally they should just remove the tech penalties all together, restrict the rest of the world by requiring "Westernisation" of the countries Military, Government and/or economic structures with the appropriate responses from those fields such as backlash from your traders in response to economic reforms.