How do i conquer it without falling 15 levels behind in admin ?
Should i just protectorate and hope they westernize? or just slowly conquer with claims
Should i just protectorate and hope they westernize? or just slowly conquer with claims
India
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If you have them as a protectorate and they westernize, they'll remain a protectorate. You'd have to break the protectorate agreement and take a stability hit, then take additional action to vassalize.
If you want the territory there mostly to steer trade, then a couple of personally held provinces to use as military/naval bases with lots of protectorates and local trade fleets is probably the way to go.
If you want direct control, you're probably just going to have to bite the bullet pay the points. Having some kind of coring cost reduction modifier would help. I'm not sure what else gives that besides administrative ideas and some national ideas though.
If you want the territory there mostly to steer trade, then a couple of personally held provinces to use as military/naval bases with lots of protectorates and local trade fleets is probably the way to go.
If you want direct control, you're probably just going to have to bite the bullet pay the points. Having some kind of coring cost reduction modifier would help. I'm not sure what else gives that besides administrative ideas and some national ideas though.
You can avoid the stab hit for revoking protectorates by agreeing in a surrender agreement. You'd then need to get a new CB to attack them though since the Expansion CB doesn't work on westerners.
Religious CB remains in force all game now so if you use the mission that gives claims and take a few coastal provinces around India you can then be neighbours with everyone and slowly eat the country. Its about the closest to a realistic conquest method as the game now allows. If you get there early and break up all the nations as much as possible, then let them westernise you can then use the religious CB and slowly diplo-annex them. It will be very slow though compared to just straight conquest.
Also if your going for the conquer India achievement I would gamble and wait for the new DLC. You'll probably want to focus on the India region when playing Wealth of Nations anyway. They will probably fix the current extreme innacuracy that protectorates are causing in India.
Religious CB remains in force all game now so if you use the mission that gives claims and take a few coastal provinces around India you can then be neighbours with everyone and slowly eat the country. Its about the closest to a realistic conquest method as the game now allows. If you get there early and break up all the nations as much as possible, then let them westernise you can then use the religious CB and slowly diplo-annex them. It will be very slow though compared to just straight conquest.
Also if your going for the conquer India achievement I would gamble and wait for the new DLC. You'll probably want to focus on the India region when playing Wealth of Nations anyway. They will probably fix the current extreme innacuracy that protectorates are causing in India.
No, that's not true. If your Protectorate westernizes they become entirely independent. One approach is to annex some provinces then create a Protectorate. The ruler will be of your Dynasty and you could inherit later on. When they do break free, if they're not too big you might be able to diplo-vassalize them. All that said, don't try to fight the system. Annexing all of India is a lot of work - probably best to be content with just having it all as Protectorates/Vassals.
To clarify, they will appear western while westernizing, but remain a protectorate until they complete the process. After they do so, they break free. However, because they show as "western" the moment they hit the button, it will look like a western nation is a protectorate temporarily.
It's probably more efficient to just protectorate India/China if you're a western tech nation, and grab the income from that.
It's probably more efficient to just protectorate India/China if you're a western tech nation, and grab the income from that.
I was trying to get the archievement as Great Britain but I stopped as soon as I read that protectorates don't count.
200 adm per province is a bit too much...
200 adm per province is a bit too much...
Well, in my last game most of India had westernized by the 1700s which might make diplo-annexing work. I don't recall though, if you have a Westernized Indian nation release nations are the released nations Western?
Rajput ideas will do that to you.
Fortunately, if you want the achievement you can get it with Ottomans, Grenada, Kazan, Golden Horde, Crimea, Novgorod, and Muscovy too. All of those can vassal India, and all but Muscovy/Novgorod can see India from day 0. Doing it with the Ottos is a cakewalk of course, but none of the others would have it that hard either.
Yes I know, but I finished my Ottomans game recently (for the sultan of Rum archievement) and I started the conquest of India already westernized.
I think I'll try as Muscovy, I haven't played them yet and I don't really like to stay unwesternized (?) but it seems like the only way.
Thanks for the advice anyway!
what does it say that the best tech group to dominate the Old World... is now Eastern?
Most of us here probably saw Shenryyr2's Poland Can Into Space achievement run. That is more of the map than he ever managed to dominate before in an Ironman achievement run. And given the BS exists-for-no-goddamn-reason protectorate rules cockblocking western nations and only Western tech group nations at the moment, it's not going to be isolated.
The ability to expand eastward as an Eastern tech group nation, blob up to ridiculous extremes, then push back west and crush the Western world with countless Asian hordes, now pushes Eastern tech above western in the long game, even with western unit advantages -- because they won't be able to match eastern numbers in the hands of a sufficiently skilled Eastern tech group player.
Seriously, WHY DO PROTECTORATES EXIST? What problem with the game are they here to solve? What possible situation could the fermented mind of man concoct, to which protectorates are the only possible solution? I know there are strategies that make the best of them, but you could do most of them with a guarantee and a GODDAMN TRADE TREATY, which this game STILL doesn't actually let you do. And at the moment they exist to hand the entire old world to the Muslim Tech Group, nothing a Western nation can do about it other than clog their invasion routes with useless vestigal things that exist for their own sake and you have to engage in large mental gymnastics to find anything useful to do with them.
Even CN's, which is another thing that exists solely for its own sake that ticks me off, are more interesting and useful than protectorates and have some strategic impact. protectorate is this thing that is there, the end.
Most of us here probably saw Shenryyr2's Poland Can Into Space achievement run. That is more of the map than he ever managed to dominate before in an Ironman achievement run. And given the BS exists-for-no-goddamn-reason protectorate rules cockblocking western nations and only Western tech group nations at the moment, it's not going to be isolated.
The ability to expand eastward as an Eastern tech group nation, blob up to ridiculous extremes, then push back west and crush the Western world with countless Asian hordes, now pushes Eastern tech above western in the long game, even with western unit advantages -- because they won't be able to match eastern numbers in the hands of a sufficiently skilled Eastern tech group player.
Seriously, WHY DO PROTECTORATES EXIST? What problem with the game are they here to solve? What possible situation could the fermented mind of man concoct, to which protectorates are the only possible solution? I know there are strategies that make the best of them, but you could do most of them with a guarantee and a GODDAMN TRADE TREATY, which this game STILL doesn't actually let you do. And at the moment they exist to hand the entire old world to the Muslim Tech Group, nothing a Western nation can do about it other than clog their invasion routes with useless vestigal things that exist for their own sake and you have to engage in large mental gymnastics to find anything useful to do with them.
Even CN's, which is another thing that exists solely for its own sake that ticks me off, are more interesting and useful than protectorates and have some strategic impact. protectorate is this thing that is there, the end.
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Good luck expanding into all those Asian nations when a western nation rolls up and makes them a protectorate super early, rakes in money, and mercs things up. Meanwhile, western nations are pushing FL over 200 easily with colonial nations and laughing their way to the bank, all the while having superior NIs for direct combat.
Seriously, something like a Ming protectorate + much of SEA/India routed into Malacca --> Zanzibar (or through India if that's all protectorate stuff too) is disgusting and not difficult to do. Protectorates serve to both give the master some cash and also to deny that land to competition, and they can serve that purpose painfully early.
Only if the Muslim group has good leader luck and presses its early tech 3 over 2. Indian units are stronger than Muslim units at every tech level, given even tech. At tech 12, Muslims are hopelessly, pathetically outmatched by Indian nations, and will remain so for a long time to the point where even a tech 14-15 Muslim would probably die horribly to Indian tech 12.
No joke though, 1/2 the trade power of literally everybody in an area = money.
Protectorates are by far the cheapest way to make money especially when you consider that the Monarch Power costs are so minor. If you start as a Sub-Saharan or some other low tech nation - you don't want to spend Monarch Power on infrastructure, you want them to catch up in technology so Protectorates are what fuel your economy.
Unless the nations you released Westernized, no, they aren't Western (but whatever they were previously). Its why after I recently Westernized as Khiva I've mostly ignore India.
That, and there's a massive Westernized Vijayanagar that I'd rather not tangle with. I can beat them, but I've got enough people to fight without draining myself against them.
I'm also still not fond that you can't form India, but "Hindustan" instead. I still don't get why we call it that instead of India. Like, I get that it was a historical name for the region... but there's still never been any nation called "Hindustan". And it ain't like the game doesn't already have multiple formable countries that didn't actually exist in the EU time frame. Like, maybe in CKII it'd be a better name... but in EU?
Not only did 'Hindustan' not ever exist but in truth it was only ever referred to as 'Bharat' since time immemorial.
If you do that, just be sure to not have any cores on the mainland and cut off Muscovy.
Well there's a reason it's called the mythical realm of Hindustan. One does wonder why everyone on the forum insists on calling it India, though. Some kind of in-joke like emu'd?
It's easy enough to avoid mainland cores. You can use expansion finisher or even canceled loans to get a CB on someone and just attack them. It's probably best to go exploration and then take Maldives + Ceylon and operate from there + Indonesia to protectorate everything. Strictly speaking, you don't even have to do that though if you have expansion. You could just use expansion + protectorate it all and collect in Indus with a fleet stationed there
. If all coastal nations are protectorates nobody will be able to invade + core there without fighting you after all.Russia is the only problem then, but if they westernize they can't vassal them either and it's a protectorate war haha. Of course in SP you can just trash them early.
I've been playing a game as Vijayanagar. I westernized, and made Aceh and Majapahit protectorates. Majapahit has since westernized as well, but they are still my protectorate.
If you have gotten the notification that they've completed westernization, report it as a bug. You can confirm they have completed westernization by loading as them.
I just cored it all. I was 3 adm techs behind at the end, doesn't matter much. They all westernized and I didn't even bother to vassalize any of them. I was adamant on coring it all.
