India or Spice Islands

[synthshadow]

Evening all

As the title suggests, is going after India now it has more provinces, just as rich as a continuous landmass than the Indonesian island chain?

Just that pre-expansion and in earlier updates, playing a British game (shock, horror) and going against my British instincts, I avoided going after India and going more the Dutch way of colonising and conquering Indonesia and the Spice Islands.

What I found was staggering was how little I previously got from India and how much came from the spice islands. That is clearly not historic so every game after I avoided India like the plague, curiously it was never troubled by ANY European nation...

Can anyone confirm India is now worth going for again?

 

[Oryxslayer]

Why not both? In all seriousness, with truce timers and AI westernization, you should aim, and can probably easily grab both. Current colonizer AI avoids tropical provinces like their diseased, and I was able to colonize all of indonesia as qing, starting in 1690 with one colonist. India is more conquest oriented than indonesia, so just alter you're offensive wars and all will be yours.

 

[Viperswhip]

Why not both? In all seriousness, with truce timers and AI westernization, you should aim, and can probably easily grab both. Current colonizer AI avoids tropical provinces like their diseased, and I was able to colonize all of indonesia as qing, starting in 1690 with one colonist. India is more conquest oriented than indonesia, so just alter you're offensive wars and all will be yours.

I laugh at the AI when they colonize non trade tropical provinces, still, I guess it's not bad if you plan for it. Colonizing is a great way to wear off the AE wherever you are primarily situated, the really annoying thing is that Indian countries will join the same coalition as France, even if France is nowhere in that region, ah well, game mechanics.

So, yep, you have to burn off AE, while I could laugh off a coalition of all the Indian countries I can't if everyone in Europe will attack me at the same time.

So, ya, you will need to do both.

 

[Halaberiel]

Only reason to conquer provinces overseas is to gain trade power. You get almost nothing from those provinces via taxes etc due to autonomy. Bearing this in mind conquering much of India is pointless and counter productive (they produce more goods than you do). What you should do is conquer enough in each trade company zone (3 in Africa, 4 India, 4 SEA, 3 China) to get around 70% of provincial trade power (max 4 provinces per zone, you can sometimes do fine with 2 or 3 though). You do this by taking every estuary and "important center of trade" in each zone. You need 50% for the merchant but their trade power will increase so you should leave yourself a buffer. Once you've done this just steer all the trade back to Europe and make bank. Remember that other countries get bonus to goods produced equal to the % of trade you control with your trade companies, similarly to how merchant republics work.

So yes India is very much worth it, way more so than SEA besides Malacca. You need 80%+ in all Indian nodes otherwise they syphon a lot of the money you push from further upstream. Malacca is the only real important node in all of Eastern Asia, from that node you can syphon all Chinese & SEA trade (most Chinese trade is from Hangzhou and Canton not Beijing). Concentrate your trade ships in Gulf of Aden & Malacca, this will provide you with trade power in all important Indian nodes besides Bengal (which you can bypass unless you're Venice anyway) as well as all Eastern Asian nodes. Indonesia is kinda worthless but you may as well if you have spare colonists... I am usually the only one to colonise it to be honest... Remember Indonesia is a trade company zone, that is basically its one redeeming quality, plus if you don't colonise it no one will losing you a lot of trade goods lol.

 

[Viperswhip]

Only reason to conquer provinces overseas is to gain trade power. You get almost nothing from those provinces via taxes etc due to autonomy. Bearing this in mind conquering much of India is pointless and counter productive (they produce more goods than you do). What you should do is conquer enough in each trade company zone (3 in Africa, 4 India, 4 SEA, 3 China) to get around 70% of provincial trade power (max 4 provinces per zone, you can sometimes do fine with 2 or 3 though). You do this by taking every estuary and "important center of trade" in each zone. You need 50% for the merchant but their trade power will increase so you should leave yourself a buffer. Once you've done this just steer all the trade back to Europe and make bank. Remember that other countries get bonus to goods produced equal to the % of trade you control with your trade companies, similarly to how merchant republics work.

I just give it all to trade companies or my colonial nation (I just make one super nation).

 

[Halaberiel]

I just give it all to trade companies or my colonial nation (I just make one super nation).

But why, you're just losing money doing that. Isn't the point of the overseas colonial game to make money? I mean something I didn't point out before but bear in mind the more nations you get rid of the less merchants there are in the nodes increasing the trade value. This can have huge huge effects later in the chain. Just look at history, European powers didn't destroy other nations, there was no profit in this. What they did do was own enough to control the nations and control their resources, this is how you make the most profit!

 

[FreeSoc]

Just look at history, European powers didn't destroy other nations, there was no profit in this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies

 

[Halaberiel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies

This is control not extermination. It wasn't like in the Americas where there was no major indigenous population to my knowledge (people lived there, just not a significant number), and what population was there was removed and/or killed. You essentially do this with trade companies, dominating the trade power and stealing all trade goods from the people that live there.

 

[darthfanta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies

Dutch East Indies consists of a series of protectorates. The Dutch rarely ruled any land directly until well after the Napoleonic Wars.Even then, the local rulers were left as bureaucrats.

 

[crownsteler]

Yeah... No...
Halaberiel , I'd suggest you'd read up on a certain Jan Pieterszoon Coen and his shenanigans on the Banda Islands, a certain incident involving Chinese at Batavia and so called 'hongitochten'.

 

[ChildeR]

Only reason to conquer provinces overseas is to gain trade power. You get almost nothing from those provinces via taxes etc due to autonomy.

You also get a bunch of production income. The -75% from autonomy doesn't even halve the production income when mid game you get about +50% from tech and +20% if ahead of time in admin tech.

But why, you're just losing money doing that.

Adding the provinces to trade companies only costs taxes and manpower. It increases trade power, naval FL and gives you more merchants. Well worth it, money wise. CNs not so much.

 

[ChildeR]

Can anyone confirm India is now worth going for again?

The Ceylon trade node is probably the best value for money first. There are four important centers of trade and two estuaries. That gives you a lot of trade power quickly in both the Ceylon node and Bengal. The trade goods are good too. After that Indonesia is the most valuable, then maybe Bengal. The western and northern parts of India aren't as good.

Of course, it also depends on your trade setup. The trade from Malacca is easier to steer home, since it goes straight to Zanzibar. To get the Indian trade around Africa you also need to control the Gulf of Aden. If you are don't control Africa and are planning to collect abroad, Ceylon is easier to dominate.

 

[synthshadow]

Only reason to conquer provinces overseas is to gain trade power. You get almost nothing from those provinces via taxes etc due to autonomy. Bearing this in mind conquering much of India is pointless and counter productive (they produce more goods than you do). What you should do is conquer enough in each trade company zone (3 in Africa, 4 India, 4 SEA, 3 China) to get around 70% of provincial trade power (max 4 provinces per zone, you can sometimes do fine with 2 or 3 though). You do this by taking every estuary and "important center of trade" in each zone. You need 50% for the merchant but their trade power will increase so you should leave yourself a buffer. Once you've done this just steer all the trade back to Europe and make bank. Remember that other countries get bonus to goods produced equal to the % of trade you control with your trade companies, similarly to how merchant republics work.
.

Thank you all for your kind responses. So as I understand it, I only need a few select provinces and NOT the whole line of coast that former games have tended to necessitate?

Well that should free up my game no end as in previous games I warred constantly eliminating Malacca and Brunei from the map altogether, previously painting India including all internal provinces red. Which for some people is all well and good but I was really looking to build up and dominate trade in order to be strong enough to make my mark on Europe after abandoning it early-doors.

 

[Halaberiel]

Thank you all for your kind responses. So as I understand it, I only need a few select provinces and NOT the whole line of coast that former games have tended to necessitate?

Well that should free up my game no end as in previous games I warred constantly eliminating Malacca and Brunei from the map altogether, previously painting India including all internal provinces red. Which for some people is all well and good but I was really looking to build up and dominate trade in order to be strong enough to make my mark on Europe after abandoning it early-doors.

Well sure you can conquer all of Asia but yes it is not really going to make you earn any more gold. Probably the ideal situation is to have the estuaries as I said, but also to make everyone else into protectorates, that way they'll give you 50 or 60% of their trade power anyway. Not really required though, Asian nations don't really generate much trade power without the estuaries.

You also get a bunch of production income. The -75% from autonomy doesn't even halve the production income when mid game you get about +50% from tech and +20% if ahead of time in admin tech.

Adding the provinces to trade companies only costs taxes and manpower. It increases trade power, naval FL and gives you more merchants. Well worth it, money wise. CNs not so much.

Production income isn't even worth mentioning, it is nothing compared to trade. If you're going around conquering India for trade your trade income is going to be 500+ (likely 1000-1500 if you're doing things right) and total production like 50. Who cares about 5 more gold per year per province?

Trade companies are worth it to get 50%+, after that it is money lost, that was my point. You conquer all of India you are losing money not gaining it. Conquer enough to get high trade power, this increases goods produced in places you do not own by that %, this increases trade value which increases your trade income because you steal all of the trade value in those nodes and transfer downstream. AI also build more buildings and get more value from them than you do overseas increasing value further...

EDIT: Actually I seem to remember protectorates not gaining benefits from your trade companies so maybe it's not good idea to even make them protectorates. Not sure, need to check.

 

[netorare]

There's still the production values, along with increased naval force limits for per 2 provinces in the trade company. Production can still bring in profit if you've got a hefty amount of high province goods such as silk, dyes, ivory, etc. If you can spare the adm and an army to crush rebels conquering more overseas provinces is never bad. Having more provinces means you can raise an army faster in the area too if you need to.

 

[Halaberiel]

There's still the production values, along with increased naval force limits for per 2 provinces in the trade company. Production can still bring in profit if you've got a hefty amount of high province goods such as silk, dyes, ivory, etc. If you can spare the adm and an army to crush rebels conquering more overseas provinces is never bad. Having more provinces means you can raise an army faster in the area too if you need to.

It's bad for trade value, which is the point of a trade game

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Protectorates do give 50% trade power, probably enough to be worth it in addition to controlling important trade provinces.

IMO Malacca > India due to the ability to funnel trade from China --> Malacca --> Zanzibar. With India you have pull towards Indus and Gulf of Aden and wind up contending with either Mamluks or Ottomans pulling in Aden in addition to having to conquer Aden, which can be logistically annoying to defend if the Ottomans come knocking. Of course, you can just conquer through Alexandria as an alternative route and skip Africa, in which case India first is better, but that's for nations like Venice, Ragusa, Ottomans, Byzantium, and Italy...good if Venice is your best end node though a nation spanning conquest of the Ottos/Mamluks is a reach to still call a "trade nation" lol.

 

[ChildeR]

Production income isn't even worth mentioning, it is nothing compared to trade. If you're going around conquering India for trade your trade income is going to be 500+ (likely 1000-1500 if you're doing things right) and total production like 50. Who cares about 5 more gold per year per province?

If I look at the provinces in India that I own in a Portugal game, every one of them has higher production than trade value. This is in the 17th century. Later on production income will automatically rise even more, while trade value will not. All in all trade is a more significant source of income due to all the steered trade, but production is not nearly as useless as taxation, accounting for over 10x the monthly income.

 

[ChildeR]

It's bad for trade value, which is the point of a trade game

How is adding a province you own to a trade company bad for trade value?

If you meant leaving the province unconquered for the trade company bonus to goods produced, that's just something like 20%, while getting the production would approximately double your income from that province. Also, it leaves some trade power on the table, which will be used to collect/steer against you.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How is adding a province you own to a trade company bad for trade value?

I think he means conquering a province and putting it at 75% autonomy as opposed to leaving it in AI hands but yanking out most of the trade value, based on what he said.