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Second Lieutenant
Aug 25, 2002
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Forgive me if this has been discussed previously.

I was reading in Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillan that during the post-WWI peace treaty negotiations, France was obsessed with weakening Germany as much as possible. France originally wanted to annex German territory in the Rhineland, but the US and UK refused to consider this. France's second choice would have been to create an independent country in the Rhineland, which would serve as a buffer zone between France and Germany, and would remove from German control this resource-rich territory.

The following is a quote from the book.

...The Rhineland, Clemenceau argued, should be removed from German control to ensure France's security. "The Rhine was the natural boundary of Gaul and Germany." Perhaps the Allies could create an independent state with its neutrality guaranteed, just as Belgium's had been done, by the powers.
..."Henceforward," [Foch] insisted in a memorandum to the Peace Conference in January 1919, "Germany ought to be deprived of all entrance and assembling grounds, that is, of all territorial sovereignty on the left bank of the river, that is, of all facilities for invading quickly, as in 1914, Belgium, Luxembourg, for reaching the coast of the North Sea and threatening the United Kingdom, for outflanking the natural defences of France, the Rhine and the Meuse, conquering the Northern provinces and entering upon the Paris area.
...His preference was an independent Rhineland which could be grouped together with Belgium, France and Luxembourg in a defensive confederation.
...Foch's second choice was a neutral and demilitarized state, or perhaps states, in the Rhineland. Its inhabitants, he felt, were naturally inclined toward France; in time, they would recognize that their best interests lay in looking westward rather than to the east.


In Victoria, I have seen many times France defeating Prussia in the Franco-Prussian War. Afterwards, Prussia has no troops and the Rhineland descends into anarchy. I think that there should be a possibility for France or whomever to create a Rhineland satellite after defeating Prussia from 1871 onwards, and especially after a Great War in the 1910s. The French player would choose to create the satellite instead of annexing in order to not lose so much prestige or gain any badboy.

If this option is already available, sorry, I just haven't seen it happen.
 
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The Ancient Mariner
Oct 31, 2002
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I don't think this is currently available, but it would certainly be possible to do. Perhaps you could suggest this in the VIP forum?

Steele
 

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Winter depri
Jul 28, 2002
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An independent Rhineland would be cool before the German unification. Afterwards... hmm hmm historically very improbably

I'd love to play as France, breaking Prussia and Austria apart (1840/50's-ish)and then continue to play as the Kingdom of Westphalia, and bring liberalism and freedom to Germany. :D

...Foch's second choice was a neutral and demilitarized state, or perhaps states, in the Rhineland. Its inhabitants, he felt, were naturally inclined toward France; in time, they would recognize that their best interests lay in looking westward rather than to the east.
What monsieur Foch felt was not what the vast majority of the Rhinelanders felt on that subject, that's for sure.
 

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Second Lieutenant
Aug 25, 2002
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I was hoping that by posting this in Scenarios and Modifications that someone with good mod skills would see this and do something about it.

Before the German unification, it's not so important for France to create an independent Rhineland. There are so many weak German states and West Prussia and East Prussia aren't even connected. After France loses the Franco-Prussian War, and then the Unification, it starts to make sense. Germany is too strong, so split it up into pieces. Not little Luxembourgish principalities, but a state which can be relatively independent, economically and have enough power to maintain some independence from its larger neighbours. The French would want a state which would be strong enough to prevent Germany from retaking it over a few years later.

Just because it didn't happen that way, doesn't mean that it couldn't have. Demilitarizing the Rhineland was only France's third choice after WWI. The British and Americans didn't like the idea of weakening Germany that much, because they wanted a strong country in the middle of Europe so the Russians wouldn't take over; so they wouldn't allow it. In Victoria, maybe France is so powerful that it achieves a decisive victory over Germany, without needing to be bailed out by the rest of the world, in WWI or in some other Great War before that. If that happens, maybe the French don't need British & US permission to do whatever it wants with the defeated Germany - annex pieces of it, break it up into pieces, or split it up among its neighbours, like the Germans and Russians did to Poland a few times.

Karl, I doubt if Foch was speaking for anybody except himself with his comment about Germans in the Rhine valley really being French at heart. Still, from a geopolitical point of view, carving Germany up makes sense to France. It serves its interests. I think it makes sense to Russia, too. So if Russia and France defeat Germany without Russia going into revolution, and the French are able to dictate terms in Berlin, maybe Germany is forced to sign a much harsher peace than it did in real life.
 

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Sergeant
Nov 17, 2003
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there should be also the possibility to release Alsace-Lorraine as a Satellite to avoid german claims. Then it shoul be gradually incoporated to the german unification due to its population
 

MacRobert

The Old God
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Apr 20, 2002
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There is always the ability to give provs away. I do that in alot of games, I would take over part of Greece from the Communist Greece and give it to the Ionian Islands to make a new Greece.

For instance, you could give that German land to Luxembourge, or if you can, free a small german state and give that land to him.