Independent Assyrian Tribes!

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oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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Hello. I’m here to advocate for the implementation of an independent 3-province Assyrian tribal nation in the game.

Historically, the Assyrian tribes of the Hakkari foothills remained independent until an Ottoman-Kurdish campaign subdued their self-governance and largely decimated their numbers during the mid-19th century. The Assyrians lived in small, isolated villages and practiced pastoralism, preserving their culture and Christian faith. They interacted with the Kurdish principalities and later with Ottoman governors as independent actors rather than subjects, and were recognized and treated as independent, at least by their Kurdish neighbours.

This territory, though somewhat small, was homogenous, and it is beyond a doubt that the Assyrians were the dominant cultural, political and religious force in their tribal lands. Of course, Assyrians were distributed all over Mesopotamia and Eastern Anatolia, but only at the base of the Hakkari Mountains did they congregate in any self-governing ethnic majority.

What I’m proposing is not only completely historical and well documented, but also an interesting and long-requested feature to play as the remnants of the Assyrians, and the addition of another independent state in Mesopotamia can only make it even more fun.

The strongest tribe among the Assyrians was the Nochiyaye (meaning “the metropolitan’s tribe”), after whom I propose this 3-province tribal nation take its name. The independent Assyrian tribes governed themselves in a pseudo-theocratic manner, largely being ruled by their priests, so perhaps some theocratic form of government would be suitable if not for a tribal government?

0HKCXUX.png


1.) Name: Tyare
Capital: Ashitha
Culture: Assyrian
Religion: Coptic
Terrain: Mountains
Trade Good: Wool
Development: 1/1/1

2.) Name: Hakkari
Capital: Barwar
Culture: Assyrian
Religion: Coptic
Terrain: Mountains
Trade Good: Wool
Development: 1/1/1

3.) Name: Nochiyaye
Capital: Diz
Culture: Assyrian
Religion: Coptic
Terrain: Mountains
Trade Good: Wool
Development: 2/3/1

Diz is described as a sizable (for the region), strategic town on an important trade route between the Kurds and Azeris of Iran and the Turks of Van, thus the higher development.

The new provinces aren't any smaller than the ones along the southern Caspian Sea, so I see no problem in splitting pre-existing provinces to create ones that represent Assyrian majority.

Finally, given that the Persia patch will likely release soon, I'd like to call the attention of @DDRJake and @Trin Tragula while there's still a window to research and implement such a large change.

Sources used:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=AdZfWpd4YrYC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=independent+assyrian+tribes&source=bl&ots=LJJH62Y9s6&sig=OUzNkeg6QB-iLWEsIcQg_PpadQc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGsOLe-sPWAhUh_4MKHabiAxIQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=independent assyrian tribes&f=false
https://books.google.ca/books?id=bFeZCFOiJ0MC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=independent+assyrian+tribes&source=bl&ots=Nx75KlZqZH&sig=wEaEB-PcCaRFbjKmw18FZFGlGFM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGsOLe-sPWAhUh_4MKHabiAxIQ6AEISTAJ#v=onepage&q=independent assyrian tribes&f=false
https://books.google.ca/books?id=8EYpKb_5tRYC&pg=RA1-PA233&lpg=RA1-PA233&dq=independent+assyrian+tribes&source=bl&ots=ytlhN2Gv-n&sig=9V4zdeN5RTPeLn81ZI508RUNAU0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZhq2IkMTWAhVqw4MKHc0JCyE4ChDoAQg7MAM#v=onepage&q=independent assyrian tribes&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nochiya_tribe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyari
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barwari
 
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Vigilum

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Definitely agree! don't forget Mardin too! its a shame Paradox seems to be overlooking the Assyrians. These seem like excellent ideas, though perhaps it might be better to combine it into one province, or at least, one country? Couldn't they be a tribal federation? I feel like diplomatically they would act more unified, or at least, would be treated as a more unified state. Is there any backing for it to be unified? It seems to be how some of the new countries are represented in the upcoming update.
 

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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Definitely agree! don't forget Mardin too! its a shame Paradox seems to be overlooking the Assyrians. These seem like excellent ideas, though perhaps it might be better to combine it into one province, or at least, one country? Couldn't they be a tribal federation? I feel like diplomatically they would act more unified, or at least, would be treated as a more unified state. Is there any backing for it to be unified? It seems to be how some of the new countries are represented in the upcoming update.
They are one country (a tribal federation), it's just that the country is named after the biggest tribe among them. I made 3 provinces because that's how many a culture needs to be considered by the devs.
 

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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Vigilum

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They are one country (a tribal federation), it's just that the country is named after the biggest tribe among them. I made 3 provinces because that's how many a culture needs to be considered by the devs.
Ah, okay, right. My bad! I had read it earlier, then responded later, missing that part and not bothering to reread. Again, then, perfect idea. it would give Assyria 4 provinces if you include Mardin.
 

AirikrStrife

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Absolutly love it! really happy someone found out about this, I had given up on the idea of Assyrians in the game as I thought they couldn't be justyfied by gameplay standards but this is perfect. Unfortunatly devs essentially never rework anything this far into the process (but maybe they'll make an exception) but I hope it is considered for the future.

What culture group are you placing Assyrians in btw?

@AndrejK
 

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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Absolutly love it! really happy someone found out about this, I had given up on the idea of Assyrians in the game as I thought they couldn't be justyfied by gameplay standards but this is perfect. Unfortunatly devs essentially never rework anything this far into the process (but maybe they'll make an exception) but I hope it is considered for the future.

What culture group are you placing Assyrians in btw?

@AndrejK
Unfortunately, although it may be somewhat inaccurate, Assyrian may have to be included in the Iranian culture group, if only because they'd be completely surrounded by Kurds and Azeris.
 

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Tribal theocracy
+1 Tolerance towards the true faith
+1 Missionary strength
-1 Diplomatic relations

Reforms into Feudal theocracy

Traditions
+1 Hostile Attrition
+15% fort defense

Gooraneh
The assyrian tribes founding principle is the division of temporal and spiritual power two bodies one metropolitan becoming the guardian of the our History and Future and the other our Malik who keeps his tribe together regardless od religous schism.

Legacy of Adiabene
The ecclistiastical province of Adiabene once united much of what we once called Assyria and though it perished during the 14th century the christian communities remain as the last bastion of the church of the east to liberate our brothers and unite the followers of christ.
-25% Cost to create claim

Tukhma
We are scattered between the plains and mountains so great is this hinderance that it is only the deep kinship to one another that holds us together blood and faith!
+1 Legitimacy/Devotion

Catholic communion
In the 16th century rivalries between the various bishops began emarging creating a schism eventually one of them assumed the title of patriarch and alligned himself with the pope of Rome while not a welcome change we do benefit from closer realtions with other christians.
+20% Religous Unity

Gawar route
The Urmian plains are a much desired destination for many Assyrians as is Gawar for those who wish to make it through the mountains this has created us an ideal situation for trade.
+10% Trade efficency

Interfaith communities
Long have we lived close to jews, yezidis and kurds and fostered many happy friendships and as the powers around seek to subvert our independence these bonds have become even more important.
+2 Tolerance towards heathens

Fertile plains
In spite of the hostile terrain we have been afforded, by the grace of god, some plain upon which we may plant our seeds not only for wheat and barley but also for luxuries like cotton and tea.
+10% Goods produced

Ambitions
+10% Army morale
 
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Grand Historian

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So are they Coptic's then since there's no Nestorian?

At this point, Coptic really needs to be renamed Miaphysite anyhow.
 

AirikrStrife

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Governemnt: Tribal theocracy; Theocratic government
+1 Tolerance towards the true faith
+10% Manpower
-1 Dipolmatic relations

Reforms into feudal theocracy

Nochiyaye

Traditions
+1 Hostile attrition
+15% Fort defense

Gooraneh
This the founding principle of all the assyrian tribes unites both secular and religous leadership under one authority; the Metropolitan bishop thus becoming the custodian of our peoples history and future.
+1 Tolerance towards the true faith

Legacy of Adiabene
The Ecclesiastical province of Adiabene united much of the church of the east dioceas and while it perished in the 14th century the communities it once housed lives on as the last independent bastion of the Assyrian church it is our duty to liberate our brothers and unite gods faithful under a new patriarch.
-25% Cost to fabricate claims

Rashichi
Much of the terrain in these lands is mountinous and coverd in snow as such we have deviced a set of shoes that allow us to move with much more ease than normaly possible.
-10% Land attrition

Tukhma
We are scattered between the plains and mountains so great is this hinderance that it is only the deep kinship to one another that holds us together blood and faith!
+1 Legitimacy/Devotion

Gawar route
The Urmian plains are a much desired destination for many Assyrians as is Gawar for those who wish to make it through the mountains this has created us an ideal situation for trade.
+10% Trade efficency

Interfaith communities
Long have we lived close to jews, yezidis and kurds and fostered many happy friendships and as the powers around seek to subvert our independence these bonds have become even more important.
+10% Religous Unity
+1 Tolerance towards heathens

Fertile plains
In spite of the hostile terrain we have been afforded, by the grace of god, some plain upon which we may plant our seeds not only for wheat and barley but also for luxuries like cotton and tea.
+10% Goods produced

Ambitions
+10% Army morale


Haha great job! I was thinking of modding this into the game once the new patch is released and was gonna ask if someone wanted to create NI's.

Given a small Assyrian tribal federation like the Armenian Kachabachis, it would make sense to have a formable "Assyria" as well if they manage to reconquer significant pats of the levant.

There are some interesting maps here https://www.edmaps.com/html/assyria_in_five_maps.html
that could be used as guidlines for the concept of an Assyrian formable in terms of required provinces and given claims
 
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Grand Historian

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Ah, I should also probably tag you here, @AndrejK.
 

Grand Historian

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Haha great job! I was thinking of modding this into the game once the new patch is released and was gonna ask if someone wanted to create NI's.

Go for it.
 

AirikrStrife

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AirikrStrife

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Unfortunately, although it may be somewhat inaccurate, Assyrian may have to be included in the Iranian culture group, if only because they'd be completely surrounded by Kurds and Azeris.

hmm, I kinda like that idea for gameplay reason. It would mark that the north-east assyrians were developing more ties towards kurds and iranians. But primarily from a perspective of possible culture conversion there levantine conquerers would be more inclined to culture convert the assyrians while the kurds and persian wouldn't care.

While it would also have the reversed effect of having a potential resurgent Assyria more inclined to culture convert provinces in Iraq and Syria. If they try to conquer them at all, risk is that they focus too much on azeri and kurdish lands if they get the chance and it would be weird if they were to form an iranian cultural union I just realized.

And they definitly should be banned from forming Persia.
 

oim8

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hmm, I kinda like that idea for gameplay reason. It would mark that the north-east assyrians were developing more ties towards kurds and iranians. But primarily from a perspective of possible culture conversion there levantine conquerers would be more inclined to culture convert the assyrians while the kurds and persian wouldn't care.

While it would also have the reversed effect of having a potential resurgent Assyria more inclined to culture convert provinces in Iraq and Syria. If they try to conquer them at all, risk is that they focus too much on azeri and kurdish lands if they get the chance and it would be weird if they were to form an iranian cultural union I just realized.

And they definitly should be banned from forming Persia.
Personally, I think the cultures of Mesopotamia/Eastern Anatolia (Kurdish, Luri, Assyrian, maybe Armenian) need to split off from the Persian blob and form their own group.

However, given that that's probably not going to happen, I think it would make more sense from a gameplay perspective to put Assyrian in the Iranian group because they'd share no border with any Levanite cultures, and would get culture converted way too quickly if any Azeri or Kurdish neighbour conquered them (if Assyrian gets put in the Levanite group, that is).

Plus, the mere presence of another Levanite culture in the region would invite the Ottomans to conquer that land, and no one wants that.
 

AirikrStrife

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So this is an attempt at a poll; let's see how it works out. Question is: What would you prefer a formable Assyria to be based on, a more modern concept of Assyria based on contemporary Assyrian population in the northern crescent "the so called Assyrian triangle) with standard NI or: A reimagined imperial Assyria with powerful NI and vast claims?

Vote Agree if:
Assyria as a formable should have standard NI. Formation should require provinces (roughly): Urfa, Mosul, Tikrit and either of Van and Urfa. Would give claims on northern Iraq (not including Bahgdad), northern Syria including Aleppo and Tadmor, and some provinces in Turkey and Iran (Van, Bitlis, Urmia and Maragheh) Exact extent can be further argued of course. Formation should grant kingdom rank and changed culture in Mosul and one random owned city in the region to Assyrian

Vote Helpful if:
Assyria as a formable should be a resurrected Assyrian Empire in line with a resurrected Rome or Yuan (but at smaller scope obviously) with strong NI. Formation should require provinces all over the fertile crescent and maybe even Egypt) roughly: Mosul, Baghdad, Antioch, Damascus, Urfa, Sidon, Jerusalem, Cairo, Yerevan, Qina and Basra. Formation should grant empire rank and change culture of major parts of the crescent to Assyrian as well as rely heavily on using classical names for provinces all over the fertile crescent eliminating all arab and turskish names in Syria, Iraq and Egypt.

What could be argued is that if you're strong enough to do option 1 you can probably do option 2 aswell pretty soon. Maybe that's true but option 1 can be done on a speed level similar to the rise f the white sheep achievment, while option 2 can not be done without grabbing the ottobull by it's horns. However the main point is not whether one option is harder than the other but the flavor and feeling of playing an Assyrian game
 

Vigilum

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So this is an attempt at a poll; let's see how it works out. Question is: What would you prefer a formable Assyria to be based on, a more modern concept of Assyria based on contemporary Assyrian population in the northern crescent "the so called Assyrian triangle) with standard NI or: A reimagined imperial Assyria with powerful NI and vast claims?

Vote Agree if:
Assyria as a formable should have standard NI. Formation should require provinces (roughly): Urfa, Mosul, Tikrit and either of Van and Urfa. Would give claims on northern Iraq (not including Bahgdad), northern Syria including Aleppo and Tadmor, and some provinces in Turkey and Iran (Van, Bitlis, Urmia and Maragheh) Exact extent can be further argued of course. Formation should grant kingdom rank and changed culture in Mosul and one random owned city in the region to Assyrian

Vote Helpful if:
Assyria as a formable should be a resurrected Assyrian Empire in line with a resurrected Rome or Yuan (but at smaller scope obviously) with strong NI. Formation should require provinces all over the fertile crescent and maybe even Egypt) roughly: Mosul, Baghdad, Antioch, Damascus, Urfa, Sidon, Jerusalem, Cairo, Yerevan, Qina and Basra. Formation should grant empire rank and change culture of major parts of the crescent to Assyrian as well as rely heavily on using classical names for provinces all over the fertile crescent eliminating all arab and turskish names in Syria, Iraq and Egypt.

What could be argued is that if you're strong enough to do option 1 you can probably do option 2 aswell pretty soon. Maybe that's true but option 1 can be done on a speed level similar to the rise f the white sheep achievment, while option 2 can not be done without grabbing the ottobull by it's horns. However the main point is not whether one option is harder than the other but the flavor and feeling of playing an Assyrian game

Assyria is a national identity, not a mythical status symbol only achievable by the grandest of empires. Why would a country remain a tribal theocracy/federation until it's some grand empire, then magically turn into an empire? Seems silly. It's better to incorporate the first one along with the second one. It seems more realistic to just grant a decision that changes your government to an empire rank and gives you prestige as well as change a few provinces in some way. Assyria CAN be both, but it has to be Assyria before it can do option 2.


Perhaps we could have the decision to form Assyria more long the lines of Italy do this: Tribal Theocracy->Feudal Theocracy?
 

Grand Historian

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While I really like the idea of a reformable Assyrian Empire, I have to vote for the modern reimagining. Formable Egypt in EU4 is based off the modern idea, not Ptolemaic or pre-Persian Egypt.