Indebted Kingdom and the Golden Horde

[zlatky]

So, i started this new campaign like 5-6 days ago.

I chose Norway this time, and everything seemed to be going well. After 5 or 6 different reigns, I had managed to conquer all of of England, Iceland and Denmark, parts of Scotland, and half of Italy, Ireland, and Sweden. Then I got a couple of provinces in France, and, finally, the Dutchy of Jerusalem (with the relevant lands attached to it).

At this point my finances weren't awesome, but they were at the "+" side anyway.

So, my King dies, and his fist-son inherits all there was (i tend to give my firstborn all my possessions regardless of the system of government). I have like 60-80k troops and the game-difficulty is dropped to less than 20% (checked when i do some reloads of it etc).

However, when the new ruler "takes over" i notice the gold-balance and I see this omfgwootpwned -5k balance!...Apparently the new heir had borrowed money from the lenders at some point, but still - HOW on earth can this deficit have accrued?!...

I put my retinues to full-stop, and with no other armies / navies raised at all. I get something like +14g from my economy, but, apparently, i can't build anything because of this big deficit!...

...So my 6th King dies eventually managing earn around 2k gold during his tenure, right? But when the new King emerges, the balance goes to...-8k gold!!!!!...

...Needless to say that by the 9th reign of my dynasty the deficit was fluctuating from -11k to -8k at best. And as if this crap wasn't enough I have the Golden Horde declaring war against me literally out-of-the-blue!!! (Note: I was in good terms with them always, plus quite a few of my princesses had married Princes / officials from their Court)...

...So, I summon my approx 55k trops and send them over to the province near the Baltic Sea over which the Golden Horde had declared war against me. By the time I get my armies there with my ships, the province was besieged by 45-50k of their armies, and another 15k were approaching from afar. Guess what happens next tho!...: I LOSE the battle (and nearly my entire army ofc) even though it was led by imba military "masterminds"!...Ah, yes - and the Golden Horde Army suffered NO ATTRITION WHATSOEVER TOO - WTF?!...

...The...remaining troops of mine were slaughtered by the incoming 15k, 2nd line of attack, GH-troops ofc!...So, I resigned this campaign after only 9 reigns, and with a 45.365 pts score, ending prematurely my hopes of breaking my own personal record of 69.147 pts (14 reigns) right on 1453 A.D.!...If the bloody GH wasn't (literally) INVINCIBLE I am more than certain that I'd have make it!...

...So, my q's are summarized to these 2 I guess:


1) WHY do we "inherit" debt from a new heir and HOW on earth can we nullify it / start making profits in cases that it is too big (6k+++)??

2) HOW can we defeat Golden Horde Armies when: a) They suffer no attrition, b) they get omfg-ridiculously high reinforcements (20-50k troops) even if we manage to defeat their first wave(s) of attacks?



All knowledgeable player-comments / pointers are more than welcome!

 

[Kingsims]

I never had this issue with my sons. If they are landed then they shouldn't be getting so much debt.

I do have the issue of one day my king is making 70 gold per month and then he dies and his son takes over and gold drops to 20 gold per month. Its to do with stewardship. All things that involve gold are to do with stewardship. Check the total next to your king in brackets () if its at something like 60 then your king will make mega gold and if his vassals are happy then he will get even more gold. The realm size and holdings don't change but the stewardship skill and opinion of your vassals (your town mayors and bishops) does.

 

[Alyiakal]

You need to raise your tax income. I don't find that raising taxes on feudal lords is effective; instead, it's better to hand provinces over to the local mayor or bishop, promoting it to the county seat. These guys will then report to you directly and pay you taxes, so you aren't reliant on personal demesne income and baron-level vassal income to fund your retinues (which are expensive).

I've honestly never seen such a huge debt on a heir; what can they even spend it on? The only thing I can even think of is that they're landed and forging a ridiculous amount of claims, but those shouldn't even be that expensive for them.

You defeat the Golden Horde (and most other hordes) by luring them to a coastal province and dropping ALL your troops on top of them at the same time. Better players than I can shadow their stacks with multiple armies from multiple provinces, but I don't have the patience for this, especially since the whole horde mechanic is terrible to begin with.

 

[Lorehead]

Are you calling up their levies? They have to pay for those. Do note that being bankrupt kills your troops’ morale.

 

[zlatky]

Thanks for your input so far. A couple of additional info to what you have mentioned:

1) I tend to distribute most of my duchies / counties to my firstborn son when take over the throne as a "new" King in the game. In this way i am always under the demesne max-limit (according to the relevant tech that I have by that point).Moreover, with gravelkind succession law, I can have the rest of my children without lands, and suffering no penalty for it. My personal experience from the game is that if I give more than 1 county and / or 1 duchy to any other non-dynasty member they will eventually turn against me (plots / rebellions), and they will summon big armies to fight me. This, in turn will slow me down in my "Kingdom's expansion strategy", and make a mess out of the game (especially if I already possess a big Kingdom).

Having mentioned that, it's obvious that I nearly never get more than 20g/month form my demesne possessions. And I never have more than 2 provinces completely "upgraded" because of the huge building costs that are needed. But I guess that the "trade off" (= less time spend in fighting greedy dynastic members, or other vassals, over any number of provinces) clearly worth the sacrifice.

2) As far as claims are concerned: Yes, I tend to always have at least 2-3 strong claims "available" (especially to lands bordering my possessions), and have my troops physically capturing them before moving on to new "claimed" lands, and so on.

3) As far as stewardship is concerned: I've never realized this far that it is *so* important. So, do you actually suggest that I should spend some pts (and how many) on it when I start a new game every time? Or what are some solid techniques that they can increase stewardship-numbers while playing a game? Vassal happiness is like a...utopia tbh. Always too many plots agains me or my heir(s), so I have the rebels send to jail and (if i can) confiscate their lands. However, nearly all of my vassals are quite happy during my "late years" (= before I die) as a King. This doesn't mean s*** tho, cause when the next-in-line heir takes over, all the freaking vassals are mighty-mad at him!...

4) regarding calling up vassal levies during a game: I only do that against "big opponents" (i.e. big Muslim or Christian Kingdoms). I usually rely upon my retinues who i nearly always focus on growing steadily but slowly throughout the game (and always according to my financial status ofc).


Having said all that, it is still beyond me HOW the hell such huge debt was accumulated on that particular game. There should be an option to either erase the predecessor (liege) debts when you take over the throne yourself, OR be able to fight a "civil war" against vassals / money lenders from which the money was borrowed. And if I won, the debt would be permanently erased. Or if I lost I would lose some lands / titles as "payment", or whatever. But being burdened for 3-4-5 reigns with ridiculously high debts literally kill the game, since you can't do ANYTHING, except...quit the particular campaign.-

 

[Sian]

if you want all your stuff going to your oldest son, use Primogeniture or promote all other sons to Bishops ...

What is needed is a way to pay the debitors in countries ....

 

[knppel]

also relying on a retinue to maintain safety is costy and ineffective. Local levies are almost always faster at the front (unless you stick to coastal expansion).
Your realm size seems pretty big, I remember a game where getting elected Holy Roman Emperor and inheriting the former Kaiser's 20k knight retinues totally messed up my balance (which was a safe +80 yearly or so before as King of Bavaria).
Still the debt of 5k or so seems very strange, I never saw a character reach that much negative money (most expensive event I can remember: Ramadan gifts for all four wifes, 2800 gold).
Another otion would be the heir starting tons of wars inside the realm to press his de jure claims from the duke titles, but always loses. The war refund pays can cripple him pretty much (exspecially if he is ambitious and tries to conquer land against the odds)

 

[Lorehead]

What is needed is a way to pay the debitors in countries ....

For that matter, there’s a reason it’s called sovereign default.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

You need to raise your tax income. I don't find that raising taxes on feudal lords is effective...

Who told You this is not effective ? I love my vassals - especially when I rule long enough - I force them to pay (max to medium taxes, there is too much risk to go further, especially if ruler would die of natural causes in a great age of 30 ). I don't have problems with armies too - my vassals are paying for mercenaries and retinues. Also I got at least one republic, and that doges is paying for me. Also, if he would built everything he is accumulating gold nicely. And due to the fact that some doges are rebellious sometimes there is an occasion to banish them In my last game in Byzantine I just caught one doge and banish him for a small amount of 15.000 gold I had -30 for tyranny (Duke title You can easily strip if he would rebel for free), but it was worth

(...)

About Golden Horde, I am curious - did You check how their army is prepared and did You reorganised Yours so they were prepared to battle ? Or You just attack with randomly gathered army, no matter how they had center and flanks filled with troops ?

 

[unmerged(26764)]

Who told You this is not effective ?

Once I have a big empire, I always tax feudal vassals. Usually max. I turn it off when I get a new king. Then once the long reign bonus kicks in, so do taxes. I need the money to both buy and pay retinues and still improve my demense. Once the demense is fully improved, sometimes I lower taxes a bit. But retinues are expensive in big empires, far more than your own demense can afford. And bishops are only an option if you're Orthodox, because you can't afford to have your income plummet to zero if you get a popular crusading pope.

 

[toniagree]

elective all the way, and even the bishop loves you more than the pope -> more money

 

[Zireael]

Still, the debt of -5k is incredible. I think it's a bug, dear sir.

And the GH probably had the Mongol doomstack...

 

[vertinox]

It sounds like a behavioral bug, like somehow your heir had the ability to blow all that money somehow. Maybe on mercenaries, holy order, or retinues when they should have been impossible to do so because of continual debt.

There is a easy solution though with a cheat.

I believe you hit the ~ key or alt 21 for other keyboards (you might have to research how to do cheats in CK2 but I think that is right but I could be wrong).

and then in the window type:

cash 5000

Which should get you out of debt.

Still you should report it as a bug because the AI shouldn't be able to run up such massive debt.

 

[unmerged(100125)]

I had a vassal queen with -2500 when I checked on her once... the reason for it was somehow she only had 1 province in her demense despite ruling a large sicily and I had her fleet levy raised for about 6 years during a bloody civil war

 

[Lorehead]

Try switching to him and checking his balance.

 

[Sopot]

Did your son have a ridiculously huge retinue that needed maint payments made to it?

 

[noobermenschen]

Or did he lose a war, or several wars, he started? That's a very easy way to lose 2 or 3 years worth of income IIRC.

And for income, set up a couple of Lord Mayors on coastal provinces with some extra holding slots. Preferably provinces solidly of your culture so you don't get a foreigner, and not in two county duchies so he can't usurp a title and bitch about the county he doesn't have.

 

[Ritzzz]

Once I have a big empire, I always tax feudal vassals. Usually max. I turn it off when I get a new king. Then once the long reign bonus kicks in, so do taxes. I need the money to both buy and pay retinues and still improve my demense. Once the demense is fully improved, sometimes I lower taxes a bit. But retinues are expensive in big empires, far more than your own demense can afford. And bishops are only an option if you're Orthodox, because you can't afford to have your income plummet to zero if you get a popular crusading pope.

My policy is always to standby some gold to assasinate the crusader-pope the moment the crusade is over. Generally it's easy as the pope tends to have poor intrigue stat and crappy spymaster. But of course I can do this only when income is of a certain size.

Back to OP: You do seem like you have quite a big kingdom, which makes 20g/month really rather low for your size. I guess you dont have enough upgraded holdings and lord-mayors as vassals?

It really helps if you can destroy the duchy titles of every coastal region that you dont personally hold, and then grant those county titles to lord-mayors. But of course this is easier if you start off as a duke instead of a king.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Maybe they're raising private retinues they can't afford?

 

[lamashtu]

I had a vassal queen with -2500 when I checked on her once... the reason for it was somehow she only had 1 province in her demense despite ruling a large sicily and I had her fleet levy raised for about 6 years during a bloody civil war

Yep. In my latest game: after the muslims took Greece, the HRE took it back in a Crusade. Evidently, the Emperor would occasionally call up all of Greece's fleets, which the King of Greece seemed to be solely responsible for funding. The King of Greece would constantly be 5k-10k in debt. I'm sure OP was calling up his vassal's/heir's armies or fleets and is understating it.

That said, making 20g/month is pretty sad anyway, unless you're purposefully keeping your demesne to 2-3 counties. I make over 10g/month just from Venice.

If you have roughly equivalent forces, you can beat larger opponents by luring them to the coast, preferably in a mountainous or river crossing situation, and having huge backup armies waiting in boats in the sea. When the opponent's army is 4-5 days away from landing, send your ship-based units out to the province. He'll think he has an easy-win situation, but in reality he'll be ambushed.

If you have half the forces of your opponent, you can let him assault-siege provinces, and grab them back once he has moved on. You'll go through less troops assaulting to take back provinces than he will taking them the first time, and eventually his armies will wear down enough that you're equal-sized. This requires delicate maneuvering, patience, and the viability can be different depending on your particular kingdom's geography - particularly how much is coast and how much is deeply land-locked.

EDIT: My bad. Looking at save games, it seems like he was 500-1000g in debt, not 5-10k. So, yeah, that does seem like a lot - unless you're routinely raising his demesne's ships for years.