Increasing duchy historicality and revisiting their borders

[Calgacus]

Well, I would personally prefer to concentrate on duchies and as I personally have little problem with current kingdom setup, I'm not in such a hurry. But I suppose I could start one, so you can start making change proposals in proper place, if that is what you mean?

Actually, I don't think there's much wrong with the kingdoms (a few minor things of course), just curious to see the debate.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

For the heathen world, I think the critical parts are to ensure duchies are nicely shaped and sized. Naming and / or shaping duchies after important and / or famous emirates or other lesser heathen realms is a nice touch, where possible (like Aleppo). Though I think all duchy names should sound appropriate as christian duchies, even if they are to be used by starting heathen realms. Duchy of Al Jazira always seems odd to me for example.

We also need to do Caucasus. Finellach's setup has two key differences with Paradox setup. 1) Duchy of Georgia renamed to duchy of Kartli. 2) Adding duchy of Astrakhan consisting of Albania, Derbent, Semender and Kuma.

But we also have alternative possible proposal from Chris Wilkinson in this post http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3058572&postcount=74, in the creatable area improvement discussion thread of 1066 bugfix. In that proposal we have Ossetia appearing, which sounds more appropriate than Astrakhan for a christian-sounding name. He also wanted to rename Imeretia to Abkhazia and Georgia to Iberia.

I'll be looking for more info about these places, but I'm putting these up for discussion now.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I would suggest to follow the setup of Chris Wilkinson but instead of having a duchy of Ossetia, we name it duchy of Kakheti.

http://www.answers.com/topic/kakheti?method=8

Kakheti
Kakheti is a province in Eastern Georgia. It is bordered by the small mountainous province of Tusheti and mountain-range of Greater Caucasus to the north, Azerbaijan to the east and the south, and the Georgian province of Kartli to the west.

Kakheti is geographically divided into the Inner Kakheti to the east of Tsiv-Gombori mountain-range and the Outer Kakheti to the west of it. The major river of the eastern part is Alazani, of the western part - Iori. Kakhetians speak a local dialect of Georgian. Kakheti's ISO code is GE-KA.

Kakheti was an independent feudal principality since the end of the 8th century. It was incorporated into the united Georgian Kingdom at the beginning of the 11th century, but for less than a decade. Only in the beginning of the 12th century Georgian King David the Builder (1089–1125) annexed Kakheti to his Kingdom successfully. After the disintegration of the Georgian Kingdom, Kakheti became an independent Kingdom in the 1460s. In 1762 the Kakhetian Kingdom was united with the neighboring Georgian Kingdom of Kartli, with the capital of the former, Telavi, becoming the capital of the united Eastern-Georgian Kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti. Both Kingdoms were weakened by frequent Persian invasions. In 1801 the Kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti was annexed to the Tsarist Russian Empire.

In 1918–1921 Kakheti was part of independent Democratic Republic of Georgia, in 1922–1936 part of Transcaucasian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic and in 1936–1991 part of Georgian SSR. Since the Georgian independence in 1991, Kakheti is a region in the Republic of Georgia and Telavi is still its capital.

It doesn't go al the way to the Caspian sea, but Ossetia doesn't either in real life.

Duchy of Georgia would then become Duchy of Kartli

Duchy of Imeretia would become Duchy of Abkhazia

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Duchy of Derbent would actually be acceptable as well, since we already have duchy of Aleppo and that piece of land we are talking about wasn't part of any christian realm in CK era.

Kartli is a good name for the former duchy of Georgia.

How about this then:
- Abkhazia: Abkhazia, Kasogs, Imeretia
- Alania: Sarpa, Yegorlyk, Manych, Alania, Kuma
- Kartli: Kartli, Kakheti, Guria, Tao
- Derbent: Semender, Derbent, Albania
- Armenia, Ani, Dwin, Vaspurkan

Provincewise, this is essentially standard setup, but with the addition of Derbent.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I didn't checked the CK map of that area and noticed that there is a county of Khaketi .

Derbent would be the best option here then.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Now, for Portugal, there is gameplay issue of five 2-prov duchies in small area. It's the most concentrated duchyarea on whole map. The problem in hand however is that duchies of Viseu, Coimbra and Braganza are valid duchy titles. Viseu is rather displaced however, since Viseu itself is rather in CK province of Coimbra or Castelo Branco and actually north of Coimbra.

Now Finellach's proposal of a duchy of Alentejo carries the problem that no such duchy apparently ever existed, so it would be a duchy based on region, which I find rather abhorrent when real duchies are available.

So as possible solution, how about something like this:
- Duchy of Braganza: Braganza and Porto
- Duchy of Coimbra: Coimbra and Lisboa
- Duchy of Viseu: Castelo Branco and Evora
- Duchy of Algarve: Alcacer do Sal, Mertola, Silves, Faro

Yes, this is awfully big for Algarve, but since it represents their secondary "king" title, it should have some substance.

 

[Calgacus]

Finellach's Duchy of Portugal doesn't sound too bad, since it could represent Portugal before gaining Kingdom status, as well as the Archbishopric of Braga.

I'm just curious, since neither the county of nor the Kingdom of Portugal existed in 1066, what the title of the local lord ... Count of Coimbra?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Finellach's Duchy of Portugal doesn't sound too bad, since it could represent Portugal before gaining Kingdom status, as well as the Archbishopric of Braga.

I suppose, but county of Portugal wasn't around so long. And another problem with it is that it's going to take out the lands of all three real duchies. If you can find some appropriate entity for central Portugal, it would be fine, but I find sacrificing all three real duchies to put powerful county as duchy rather, well, odd.

I'm just curious, since neither the county of nor the Kingdom of Portugal existed in 1066, what the title of the local lord ... Count of Coimbra?

In game or in reality?

In game he's duke of Braganza. In reality he was count of Portugal, afaik.

 

[Calgacus]

In game or in reality?

In game he's duke of Braganza. In reality he was count of Portugal, afaik.

Reality. I didn't think the county of Portugal was created until 1093.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Reality. I didn't think the county of Portugal was created until 1093.

It was already conquered in 1055-1064 timeframe from the moors, but I can't find anything about earlier counts than Henry of Burgundy in 1093. However, the people there in 1066 scenario are clearly not any random personages, so I believe research has been done there.

 

[Calgacus]

I believe the "Duke of Braganza" - Nuno of Portugal is Count Nuno II Menéndez (1052-1071) of Oporto.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Ah, that must be him, especially when his default successor is count of Coimbra. This really drops off the basis on having Portugal as a duchy, since only Henry and his son Alphonse were counts of Portugal and Alphonse for only part of his reign.

 

[Calgacus]

Ah, that must be him, especially when his default successor is count of Coimbra. This really drops off the basis on having Portugal as a duchy, since only Henry and his son Alphonse were counts of Portugal and Alphonse for only part of his reign.

I dunno ... I still think 4 duchies is too many for Portugal. But given the AI tendency in recent patches to hand out all duke titles, I'd be reluctant to support a Duchy of Portugal (unless the AI was guranteed to use it for an archbishopric); but on the other hand, Finellach has some points. I guess, unless one wants to use NONE, it's really either-or.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Four duchies is too many still? Hrm... Another suggestion then:

- Braganza: Braganza, Porto, Castelo Branco
- Coimbra: Coimbra, Lisboa, Evora
- Algarve: Faro, Silves, Mertola, Alcacer do Sal

Or alternatively:

- Braganza: Braganza, Porto, Coimbra
- Viseu: Castelo Branco, Lisboa, Evora
- Algarve: Faro, Silves, Mertola, Alcacer do Sal

Or alternatively:

- Coimbra: Coimbra, Porto, Lisboa
- Viseu: Braganza, Castelo Branco, Evora
- Algarve: Faro, Silves, Mertola, Alcacer do Sal

 

[Calgacus]

Four duchies is too many still? Hrm... Another suggestion then:

- Braganza: Braganza, Porto, Castelo Branco
- Coimbra: Coimbra, Lisboa, Evora
- Algarve: Faro, Silves, Mertola, Alcacer do Sal

I prefer this one, but it seems all rather arbitrary to me. Maybe you should move on until Finellach comes back.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I prefer this one, but it seems all rather arbitrary to me. Maybe you should move on until Finellach comes back.

I know it is rather arbitrary, but I'm not keen on replacing real duchies with duchies based on regions, which afaik Alantejo is.

But we'll move forward then. Steppes are next. This is how they would be somewhat looking like now, when Russia is done:

- Crimea: Crimea, Lower Dniepr, Lukomorie, Lower Don, Oleshye, Chorlitza
- Azov: Azov, Tana, Kuban
- Don: Sugrov, Desht-i-Kipchak, Khopyor, Sarkel, Don Portage
- Ural: Zyriane, Votyaki, Kama, Bilyar, Bulgar, Southern Ural, Bashkirs, Syrt
- Volga: Lower Volga, Uzens, Yaik, Saray, Ryn Desert, Itil
- Khwarizm: Emba, Aral, Khwarizm, Mangyshlak, Usturt
- Kara-Kum: Kara-Kum, Turkmen, Maverannahr, Bukhara, Dihistan, Merv

The land of huge duchies, I'd say. With the expection of Azov, all of them are five or more provinces.

 

[Calgacus]

I know it is rather arbitrary, but I'm not keen on replacing real duchies with duchies based on regions, which afaik Alantejo is.

But we'll move forward then. Steppes are next. This is how they would be somewhat looking like now, when Russia is done:

- Crimea: Crimea, Lower Dniepr, Lukomorie, Lower Don, Oleshye, Chorlitza
- Azov: Azov, Tana, Kuban
- Don: Sugrov, Desht-i-Kipchak, Khopyor, Sarkel, Don Portage
- Ural: Zyriane, Votyaki, Kama, Bilyar, Bulgar, Southern Ural, Bashkirs, Syrt
- Volga: Lower Volga, Uzens, Yaik, Saray, Ryn Desert, Itil
- Khwarizm: Emba, Aral, Khwarizm, Mangyshlak, Usturt
- Kara-Kum: Kara-Kum, Turkmen, Maverannahr, Bukhara, Dihistan, Merv

The land of huge duchies, I'd say. With the expection of Azov, all of them are five or more provinces.

I don't really have a problem with the areas, but the names, esp. "Don" and "Volga"

Volga -> Itil or Sarai
Don -> Sarkel


And I'd split Kara-Kum:

Merv: Merv, Dihistan
Bukhara: Turkmen, Bukhara
with ...
Kara-Kum: Kara-Kum, Maverannahr

This is against the trend of trimming down in Duchies; but the cities of Merv and Bukhara are two of the wealthiest in Eurasia and are drawn very large. If a christian miraculously got hold of either, he'd prolly gotten a king title. Kara-Kum could take Usturt I suppose, but Merv and Bukhara gotta exist as two province Duchies at least (since no-ones a fan of the one province duchies).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I don't really have a problem with the areas, but the names, esp. "Don" and "Volga"

Volga -> Itil or Sarai
Don -> Sarkel

Are Itil, Saray and Sarkel cities, regions or realms? Or a combination of the mentioned?

And I'd split Kara-Kum:

Merv: Merv, Dihistan
Bukhara: Turkmen, Bukhara
with ...
Kara-Kum: Kara-Kum, Maverannahr

This is against the trend of trimming down in Duchies; but the cities of Merv and Bukhara are two of the wealthiest in Eurasia and are drawn very large. If a christian miraculously got hold of either, he'd prolly gotten a king title. Kara-Kum could take Usturt I suppose, but Merv and Bukhara gotta exist as two province Duchies at least (since no-ones a fan of the one province duchies).

Could Merv possibly also expand southwards into Gurgan and / or Khorasan?
Does Kara-Kum need to exist, Bukhara could replace it.

 

[Calgacus]

Are Itil, Saray and Sarkel cities, regions or realms? Or a combination of the mentioned?

Itil was a city, the capital of the Khazar empite. Crucially, Itil is also another name for the Volga. Sarai (meaning "palace" in Turkic) was founded by the Mongols as the capital of the Kipchak Khanate/Golden Horde. Sarkel was a very important Khazar border fortress, which turned into a trading emporium. It was conquered by the Rus'. All three make more convincing Rus' city-lordships (only the Rus would be likely to take them) than the previous names.

Could Merv possibly also expand southwards into Gurgan and / or Khorasan?
Does Kara-Kum need to exist, Bukhara could replace it.

The Khorasan region is quite distinctive culturally from central Asia and Persia, so it would seem wrong to me. I dunno, maybe others disagree. Gurgan muight be added, but not Khorasan.

Incidentally, I think Lut should be renamed Khorasan too.

Kara-kum was just the name of a desert, so I guess it doesn't have to.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Itil was a city, the capital of the Khazar empite. Crucially, Itil is also another name for the Volga. Sarai (meaning "palace" in Turkic) was founded by the Mongols as the capital of the Kipchak Khanate/Golden Horde. Sarkel was a very important Khazar border fortress, which turned into a trading emporium. It was conquered by the Rus'. All three make more convincing Rus' city-lordships (only the Rus would be likely to take them) than the previous names.

Itil rather than Sarai then.

Kara-kum was just the name of a desert, so I guess it doesn't have to.

So how about:
- Bukhara: Bukhara, Maverannahr, Kara-Kum
- Merv: Merv, Turkmen, Dihistan

Two nice three province duchies.